I was sincere mafia. There are plenty of Amish people around where I live. These people have no electricity in their houses, and do not get a college education. Their schooling stops at the 8th grade, actually. They choose this lifestyle, just like I choose mine, you choose yours. You don't think people in minority groups have the intelligence to choose their lifestyle? Or better yet, you don't think they have the cunning, and determination to better themselves if they want (like those hand full have already done)? If so, I guess we finally see you for what you are.

No that is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is a lot of intelligent capable people who do have drive and determination and know exactly what they want DON'T GET IT. And disproportionately those people tend to be minorities. And the reason they don't get it is because society is structured in such a way that it puts them at a disadvantage relative to majorities. That is what I have been saying for the past 24 hours, and what you simply ignore time and time again.

Racism - The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

Racism does not have anything to do with power. That said, it does require a belief in the superiority of one race over another. However, your logic that "It is not possible to be racist against white people." is complete and utter bullshit, Mafialligator.

And furthermore, the fact that a handful of people have beaten this system doesn't prove that the system doesn't exist. All it proves is that shit happens sometimes.

If I play chess against an opponent who is better at chess than me, and my opponent's only goal is to prevent me winning, and then I get lucky, and beat my opponent, can I therefore conclude that my opponent does not exist? Of course not. All I can say is that hey, shit happens.

@ Draugnar "Racism is the belief that race is a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.[1] As a practice, it means the same thing as racial discrimination. In the case of institutional racism, certain racial groups may be denied rights or benefits, or receive preferential treatment."
In this case I was referring to the practice of racism, ie. racial discrimination, in the case of institutional racism primarily.
Yes, it was hyperbolic of me to say that. I suppose what I actually meant was in practice racism is not generally exercised against white people, and will likely continue not to be in future.

@Mafialligator - no response to your statement about it being impossible to discriminate against whites? Again, the definition of racism declares your statement to be complete and utter bullshit.

K, ignore my last. I posted it as you were posting yours.

The fact is, there are racist blacks who think that being black makes them superior to being white (see the Black Panther party). But I do not view the majority of black people as being racist anymore than the majority of white people. The problem withour society is that the loud assholes get more press and airtime than the average joe.

I do that all the time, (that's part of the reason why I have so many posts, the other reason is that I'm the only person still holding up my side of the argument.)
What I meant, Draugnar is that I find majority groups tend to complain about minorities receiving special treatment without realizing that even with that special treatment, odds are, the person who is a member of a majority will still likely end up in a better situation, (more affluent, more influential, what have you) when all is said and done. (Naturally Im' sure everyone will come to me with one or two examples that shows how wrong I am, again, anecdotal evidence does not debunk statistics) I find the argument that "Oh this is being racist against white people!" almost never stands up to any kind of scrutiny, and I sought to express that by being drastic.

mafia there is no luck in chess.

If they are truly capable and intelligent, and determined... They would get what they want. But let's face it, we're midst a generation of whiners. Nobody has what they want in life, oh whoa is me and the rest. Everyone wants more more more. For these types I would suggest religion.

OK lets start deconstructing this latest argument.
As for your first comment you're nitpicking the one part of my analogy that doesn't matter. It didnt' have to be chess, it could be anything.

And as for your second comment I think that's the fundamental difference between us Amon. I live in reality, where people can get screwed over for no fault of their own.
You live in fantasy land where everyone who is good and smart always gets what they want!

But my argument is that, given the same financial standing, both majority and minority have equal opportunity and, assuming the same intellectual capacity and work ethic, both will generally come out even. It is the financial repression that still exists in the inner city that keeps most of the minority population repressed. But escaping htese conditions are no easier for a member of the majority than it is for the minority. Equal situations and circumstances produce equal results, therefore there is no racial inequality, but a rich/poor division where the rich are keeping the poor down.

OK, because you're going to nitpick this, let me say now, "no fault of their own" is a figure of speech. I don't mean that some people are never at fault, ever. I just mean that their lack of success is largely situational and has little to do with their actual talents and/or abilities.

You need to be smart, cunning, and have one hell of a work ethic if you want to move up in the social ladder. If you are these 3 things, you can do it here in America. People do all the time. Regardless of how many liberal geniuses would like to say it's impossible. Being good has nothing to do with it.

Agreed, but the situation is their being poor. Does this fall back to a time when there was racial discrimination? Of course. But nowadays, anyone who finds themselves poor will have the exact same challenege whether they are black or white. The challenge is to get out from under the rich man's thumb (and the rich man may well be black or white or asian or hispanic or native American or Indian national or any other race).

Mafia, if it has little to do with their actual talents and/or abilities, then it must be a lack of drive. I would point you to the will smith movie that I can't remember the title of right now, where homeboy was living in a public bathroom for a while with his son. And the guy who hired him? A white guy.

I have to disagree with Amon here. The social ladder is still a place where racism hides, disguised as elitism, but it is still there.

"But my argument is that, given the same financial standing, both majority and minority have equal opportunity and, assuming the same intellectual capacity and work ethic, both will generally come out even."
But studies have shown, time and time again that that simply isn't the case.
"Researchers, including Dean Karlan and Marianne Bertrand, at the MIT and the University of Chicago found in a 2003 study that there was widespread discrimination in the workplace against job applicants whose names were merely perceived as "sounding black". These applicants were 50% less likely than candidates perceived as having "white-sounding names" to receive callbacks for interviews." Just for instance
And Draugnar, I agree with you in that geographic location DOES matter. Poverty does matter, to an extent, regardless of race. That's what I mean when I say classism, and I agree, that is another important locus of inequality in society. But the truth is, a black person will probably have a harder time breaking out of that than a white person. It will still be hard for a white person. And statistically speaking we find a disproportionately large number of minorities living in poor inner city areas.
So that's my reply to you Draugnar. You're right. Classism is a problem, one that this debate cannot ignore. I'm not trying to say classism doesn't exist. A big problem, but it's not the only problem. People still also face racism, and sexism and tons of other forms of discrimination as well.

Statistically, white people have had more opportunity to build up wealth through generations than black people have. Additionally, there's at least 350 years of cultural inertia against (especially) black people succeeding in America. Black people were getting lynched for learning how to read barely a century ago. I don't think you can wave a magic wand over the past and pretend that history doesn't have a gigantic impact upon the present.

@Amon - you are really hurting my case. The Pursuit of Happyness is the story of Chirs Gardner, but Chris was a success that hit a rocky spot due to a bad investment (could happen to anyone). His story is the example of hwat can happen, but not indicative of what will happen in general. You can use outliers to prove the norm resides in the outlying points. But I shouldn't expect anything else from a 22 year old man who trolls pretending to be a woman (I didn't a little web research using some tools I have).

Amon, you're doing it again. You're just ignoring my arguments and running back to your place "No if you try hard enough you can get what you want. Anyone can." I'm sorry. I'd love to believe that's true. And in some cases it is. But I'm sorry to be able to say that in every single case of a person being poor it's either because they weren't smart, weren't talented, or weren't driven enough, you would have to examine every single case of a person being poor. You haven't done that. I know you haven't. We all know you haven't. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's made incredibly difficult by social inequalities, and that whatever you might say to the contrary, racism, sexism and other forms of discrimination play a role in making that social climbing harder for minorities. This isn't a groundbreaking thesis here.

I wasn't fighting for your case, Draugnar. If anything I would try and hurt your case.

you *can't* use outliers (just noticed the typo)

Hey Mafia, I'm going to bow out now. Amon Goeth is such a troll and I can't stand him. so rather than waste my breath and possibly get lumped in with such an asshat as Idiot Savant, I'll just bow out. I'll be happy to discuss it with you in private anytime. I'm starting to see some of what you are saying and believe we could have a genuinely productive discussion if it weren't for ASs.

I think I agree. I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall.

It's beginning to hurt. I think I will stop.

Haha. Draugnar figured me out, though. Good work Draugnar. I'll stop trolling from hereon. I would like you all to understand that I believe about 50% of anything I have yet typed. Trolling these forums have been a way for me to have fun at your intellectual expense.

Ha Ha. Good one Amon.

Never mind that some of us actually feel strongly about these issues we're debating. We're all just here for your amusement. Go die in a fire.

You're bringing in Pursuit of Happyness as an example? Christ, that film had a lot of errors.
"You need to be smart, cunning, and have one hell of a work ethic if you want to move up in the social ladder. If you are these 3 things, you can do it here in America." Yet the predominantly white establishment generally won't want you to (that is not to say minority establishment will want new comers). Status quo is God, even at the expense of equality and freedom.

And to say that it is racist to give black people privileges now, because generally they are poorer than white people, white people used black slaves for centuries to get to the level of comfort they have now. Look at crime. A black person getting the death penalty is generally seen as more deserving, and they are more likely to get it. And remember Robert Harris and Susan Smith?