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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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N1ghthawk (0 DX)
28 Aug 08 UTC
One more player needed!!!!
i know its a little late to be asking but can someone please join this game?

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5365

its a 100pt buy in and its a PPSC game
1 reply
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bernie (111 D)
28 Aug 08 UTC
New Open Game. All Welcome To Join. 10 Pts Each. Cheap!
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5375
0 replies
Open
DeliciousWolf (112 D)
28 Aug 08 UTC
Low Budget WTA open
Winner Takes All (175 points!), 24 hr phases.
My first 'Winner Takes All' Game for Girls
(Amusing title, guys welcome.)
gameID=5373
0 replies
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Wolfyboy (100 D)
27 Aug 08 UTC
2 more for Norm speed and PpSC game!
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5359

1 reply
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philcore (317 D(S))
27 Aug 08 UTC
Question for Kestas
in game: http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5155

we're waiting for France to retreat, but I can't figure out why. He has been holding his last unit in Paris for several turns and no one has been able to take him there including last turn. But since he doesn't have much interest in the game, he doesn't care about putting his orders in. I understand that and while annoying, I don't fault him. But there's no reason the rest of us should have to wait the entire cycle when he doesn't have any retreat orders to make. Can you explain? Or maybe even force the finalize?

Thanks in advance
9 replies
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jnak (100 D)
28 Aug 08 UTC
theres a game free
plz join
1 reply
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kestasjk (95 DMod(P))
14 Aug 08 UTC
Multi-accounter
Kangaroo, canute, TinTin, Careless, mapleleafrulz, russianwinter, fucka, newton, aliencity

Feels good undoing all those points gathered and accounts created over 6 months in less than 10 minutes :-) It's like kicking down an asshole's sand castle
85 replies
Open
Churchill (2280 D)
24 Aug 08 UTC
Inflation
Wow, When I joined the minimum for the top 100 was just at 600, 5 months ago. Now I'm 101st with 880 points. 280 points over 5 months, which on 600 is 47%, 9% per month (avg).

Following this, on my anniversary, I estimate that the points for the top 100 will be >1270. That's 112% inflation rate over a year.
48 replies
Open
WhiteSammy (132 D)
28 Aug 08 UTC
Unique Games
So i found this game while looking at other peoples games and this one in particular caught my eye.

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=3627

I find this game extremely unique bc
1) neither england, france, or germany was eliminated within at least 6 turns and neither one was forced to move away from its home sc's like austria.
2) the game is, oddly enough, very well balanced at the end, with of course the exception to the winner.
3) this game was not rigged by a meta but had the end results that look like one that the meta just moved the units of the other countries out of the way of his own.

Basically i was just wondering if anyone has seen a game like this one you know something extremely unorthodox like the person who won was missing a home sc or anything crazy in general.
1 reply
Open
aoe3rules (949 D)
25 Aug 08 UTC
Rating system vote
See thread "Ranking system" for details on the systems.

everyone places one vote for their preferred ranking system. note that Kestas will not program any new system, and it must be tested on an alternate server if it is to be implemented.

we add up the votes, and if an alternate ranking system wins, everyone who is willing to help develop it should start working.

the options are:

1. Current point system.
Pros: proven to work/stable. helps separate new from experienced players.
Cons: susceptible to inflation, and cheating. same reward for beating anyone, as long as they have the points.

2. Zarathrusta's proposed system.
Pros: supposedly more accurate.
Cons: supposedly more inaccurate.

3. Elo ratings
Pros: solves all problems of current point system.
Cons: too much effort.

4. Other (post in your reply, along with P/C).
Pros/Cons: who knows what.
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The current system is awesome! Let's just keep it!
Churchill (2280 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
ok, let's keep it... but don't identify the top 100 based on points.

Points are good... just... not for ranking.
sean (3490 D(B))
26 Aug 08 UTC
if its not broken dont fix it. dpoints work well.
maybe the problem is more the case that people see points as a rank tool and not a game buy in credit tool.
but something as simple as expanding the top 100 player list would be nice. maybe make it for the top 500. put in win % etc and base it on the elo ranking could help that situation.
Churchill (2280 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
sean, You have contradicted yourself.

The ranking system is broken, as a system that's intended for buy-in is used for ranking....

This is what I've been saying all along. Keep the points, I like points, points are good. But, don't use them to rank players... Use a true ranking system like ELO. The points are there to earn your way up to playing the big-names up on the top of the ELO list.
fidel (886 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
If the points are not for ranking, why to bother in having a ranking, then? Points are good for bets (and bets for all the purposes Kestas has explained), but also for ranking.
Bets help to make less pronounced the troubles with newbies and chronical CDers, but do not solve them.
And ranking is heavily biased by the fact that the points you have bet in games do not count for the ranking, although you still do not lose them (and indeed you can double them or more...) This has the effect that you can suddenly boost to a top 10 position, and then just as suddenly, dissapear again in the mass.

I agree with the proposal of not counting current games into the percentages, and also restate my proposal that the ranking should be based on both the points you have innactive AND the points you have bet in games.
Both changes are simple enough, and can help to make the current system a bit more trustable when looking at someone's profile. (They are not perfect; just a bit better).
Could someone kindly, and clearly, explain just what exactly an ELO system is?
Churchill (2280 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
And ELO system ranks players based on the rank of the people they've played and the result of the game. If I played Rait and lost, my rank would go down very little. If I played you and lost, it would be a noticeable change in position.
Churchill (2280 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
Conversely, if I beat Rait, I would shoot up (relatively), and if I lost to (:::::::::::::), I would plummet...
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
Kestas, the reason that the dpoints acheive what they do is because of the illusion that they are a good indicator of ability.

Basically, the reason it remedies things is because people loose points for loosing games or going into CD.

I shall talk about ELO and the various requirements you make:

- Seperate civil disorder players from players who rarely go into civil disorder
In Elo Civil disorder counts, just as in this system, as a loss, so there is the incentive not to.

- Allow players of more skill to play with each other and exclude players of lesser skill
You need to just have a way of allowing people to set outer limits on the skill levels in a game. This is what the league system is for.

- Allow players to choose between playing many insignificant games, or few big games
There is no point inflation in Elo rating, so even if you play relatively few games, after you have done enough to be "registered" on either system, you wouldn't be penalised for not playing enough games to keep up with everyone else.

- Don't allow a group of players to gain points just by playing amongst themselves
Elo has no inflation. If you develop a closed economy, there is no way for it to gain points.

- Provide a way to rank players
This is, of course, the whole point with the Elo system.

Whereas, with the present system:
- Seperate civil disorder players from players who rarely go into civil disorder
A player who is below average standard, is not separated from players who enter Civil disorder- both groups hover at around 100 points. (::::::::::::) and Qing Shi both played games, loosing very badly in all of them. In this system, they are the same as any other below par player.

- Allow players of more skill to play with each other and exclude players of lesser skill
This can be done except when a player is underrated. Take flashman as an example of that. When a player player people of the same or higher skill, rather than weaker players than himself, his rating remains stationary or drops. Inflation means that this results in a rating drop, and so you end up without the points to play your peers. Essentially, the system, any system, only acheives this if it correctly guages ability.

- Allow players to choose between playing many insignificant games, or few big games
This is certainly acheived

- Don't allow a group of players to gain points just by playing amongst themselves
If I play with six others and we only play with each other, those of us who are better will have our rating increased as those who are worse get rebates, so this is not acheived in all cases.

- Provide a way to rank players
There are obvious discrepancies between our opinions of players' skill and the dippoints. Elo seems to agree with our assesments


Kestas, the current Elo-rating system is very near total completion: PPSC, WTA and draws are all dealt with correctly, as is falling into civil disorder. Playing with a civil disorder nation is yet to be dealt with, however within an hour's that could be sorted also.

Chrispminis, The Spearmans' rank correlation game a result of about 0.55-0.6 which is a strong correlation, but you can see that it is a long way of 1.0 And the way it manifests itself is that some people a woefully underrated. This is the core of the problem.
Very good points Ghost - please see my post in Ranking System.
As this is the vote area, I'd like to register mine:
Step 1: Implement the ELO system, beside the current dip points system, so people can see it and get used to it.
Step 2: Show an ELO Hall of fame.
Step 3: Have another vote (informed now, because everyone has seen it and knows what their ranking would be) and replace the current system if the majority of players agree.

Just swapping out the current system would annoy too many people who have invested time increasing their existing points.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
Just so everyone is aware, I would be in favour of phasing, which gives us a chance of making a more informed decision.
Darwyn (1601 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
I started working on some small graphics last night to denote various levels of ability pertaining to the ELO system. I'll try finishing up what I have and post it tonight so you can see what I'm talking about. It's basically a 16x16 pixel graphic that replaces the "D" dip point graphic.

But again, there's no need to rid ourselves of the point system. Combining the two would actually be ideal.

The point system can still be used to barter with (keeping all the advantages of this system) while the ELO system would accurately reflect a players skill at all times...AND it would give the ELO system a bit more depth since there is a certain amount of correlation between points and skill.
Xapi (194 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
Neville:

I agree with steps 1 and 2.

About step 3, the point system works for what it works for, and damn well. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

Think about this. A metagamer gets a lot of points by winning against dummy players. However, his ELO wont get that far up, because every time he's more and more likely to win (with 7 players I think it might even happen that he stagnates completely at some point)
Now, he has the points to play in high pot games. His meta-dummies, however, don't. So, he has to play alone against real players, who may have a ELO rating similar to his, higher, or slightly lower. Should he loose, in that game alone he might loose more points than he gets in three or four games against his meta-dummies.

The bad side of it would be that those playing against him would be playing and artificially bulked player, and would gain more ELO points than they should for defeating him.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
The solution to meta-gaming is not to be found in a points system. It is through tackling it directly. It still ruins games, no matter what the point system is, so we should stop it regardless.
Xapi: about step 3: I said, "have a vote". This doesn't necessarily mean I would vote for it (but I might, having seen the system in action)
Ghost: Metagaming: I agree
For a start, if in any particular game 2 players have ever logged in from the same IP address, this should be clearly displayed in the game. (It doesn't necessarily mean they are metagaming, but alerts the other players to the possibility).
Xapi: Is metagaming actually a big problem then? Is anyone actually sad enough to do it more than once or twice?
I would say CDs are more of a problem than metagaming
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
Canute was apparently a huge scale meta-gamer/multi-accounter...
Xapi (194 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
Neville:

As was discussed before, democracy is not always the best solution to every problem. In this case, kestas pointed out what the game was like before the points system, and I think he said that this system was not well regarded when it first got implemented.

So, he did it against the will of many (I would'nt know if the mayority was in favor or against the change) and it turned out working just fine.

My point is: The point system works. Don't change it, and don't even try and vote on changing it. It is NOT MEANT to be a ranking point system, so if it doesn't do that well (wich seems to be the problem most people have with it) then so what? Propose and implement a ranking system, and be happy with it. You don't need to REPLACE the point system, you just need something DIFFERENT that does that wich the point system was NEVER MENT to do.
Churchill (2280 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
Xapi, you're wrong. The points system works only to restrict game entry. It does not work to rank players.
aoe3rules (949 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
why don't we use the point system for bets, which could be the "V" variable in the Elo formula, and use Elo for rankings?

as for CD countries, the points for beating them would be calculated at the end of the game, with incredibly simple code: take the average of your chances of losing to them at EACH TURN.

so if your chance of losing to Rait was 0.9, and he went CD after 20 phases, and your chances of losing to the CD Rait were 0.0, and you won the game 20 phases later with his country still in CD the whole time, your point gain would be calculated as the average of 20 0.9's and 20 0.0's.

best of all, this even works when other people take over the CD country!
Churchill (2280 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
Liking it, liking it. This seems to be the most viable option.
aoe3rules (949 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
this deals with cheating very well. kestas said the main problem is rank inaccuracy, though, but that's easily solved also.
Xapi (194 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
Churchill: I'm right. That is exactly what I said.
WhiteSammy (132 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
i know i havent been following all the threads about the various "ranking/point" topics but i have just one question that should shed some light on this thread.

What the heck is the Elo system?

i dont know if its just me but normally its stupid for someone to ask you to vote for something and not expain all the objects in question. i would think that it would skew results and whatnot
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
Gawd, I'm gunna have to make another post explaining the damn thing.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
See my profile comment.
aoe3rules (949 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
you've explained it how many times so far?
WhiteSammy (132 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
sorry but i must have missed it bc i went through the thread twice and all i noticed was a reference here and there to Elo and an occasional explaination of a small part
aoe3rules (949 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
it's explained in "ranking system", i think.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
See the comment in my profile: http://phpdiplomacy.net/profile.php?userID=2188

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70 replies
gryncat (2606 D)
27 Aug 08 UTC
new game needs two players
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5344

Casual friendly game (as friendly as these things go, I suppose). Two players that were supposed to join could not, so I am looking to fill the spots before the game starts so new players aren't just stuck with Germany and Italy.

Password is: law school

See you there.
3 replies
Open
SantaClausowitz (360 D)
27 Aug 08 UTC
Why I quit Diplomacy
Here is the Austrian Emperors last ditch effort to stay alive long enough for help to arrive. I turn to once Proud Russia's final unit in Galicia for some help.

Tue 03 AM (Austria, Me) Autumn 1904: not for nothing but I never crossed you, could you help me out with your last orders?
10:20 PM (Russia) Spring 1905: what do you want help with?
03:56 AM (Austria) Spring 1905: support vienna into budapest?
11:32 AM (Russia) Spring 1905: done

*I Bounce with no Turkish support on Budapest and no support from Russia*

07:14 PM (Austria) any reason you left me out to dry?
07:16 PM (Russia) order history...
Russia:
The army at Galicia support move to Vienna from Budapest.
07:17 PM (Austria) What? It was supposed to be veinna into Budapest. Are you kidding me? Why would I want you to support budapest to vienna?
07:18 PM (Austria) translation: you got it backwards
8 replies
Open
Yaniv (1323 D(S))
27 Aug 08 UTC
Question re what army movement & outcome
French army Burgundy moves to Belgium
French army Marseilles moves to Burgundy
French army Paris supports Marseilles' move to Burgundy

German army Rhur moves to Belgium

Because the two units moving into Belgium are moving with equal force, neither wins, and thus there is a stand-off.

Does the French unit return to Burgundy, pushing the unit now in Burgundy back to Marseilles, OR does the unit now in Burgundy remain in Burgundy, and thus the unit that failed to occupy Belgium obliged to retreat to a contiguous empty space (such as Picardy)?
1 reply
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
24 Aug 08 UTC
League system announcement
We now have 35 players in our league system. There are a few others who want to join. If that number reaches seven by Friday 29th August, then I shall add an extra league in. To register interest, please email me, the email including your phpdiplomacy name.

Full details about the leagues are in the reply.
29 replies
Open
Henry Kissinger (100 D)
22 Aug 08 UTC
Is this metagaming or just poor sportsmanship??
See comment below.
13 replies
Open
q93 (373 D)
27 Aug 08 UTC
Kestas
I just had an unusual option:

Army at Burgundy support move to Belgium from: Ruhr, Tusc.........
2 replies
Open
texasdeluxe (516 D(B))
27 Aug 08 UTC
All or nothing...
Come join a 36 hour 101 point winner takes all game. Hopefully there will be lots of diplomacy and political intrigue and much scheming... Trust there will be no missed moves, CDs or unbreakable alliances... Game is called 'All or nothing...' (http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5361)
0 replies
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Sicarius (673 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
what kind of music is this?
no idea how to classify this, maybe someone could help
3 replies
Open
Churchill (2280 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
Government
So, in my tired ramblings I came up with the idea of a phpDip goverment that might be entrusted in regulating some of the inflation problems (it might even tie in with kestas's moderators).

Systems could include determination by vote, by rank, or better: both.

This would be very interesting, as Diplomacy is a political game in a nature, and I feel that many players would enjoy a longer-spanning side-game so to speak.

Discuss below:
9 replies
Open
Figaro Figstein (100 D)
27 Aug 08 UTC
Mazel Tov Cocktails Over Berlin
Advanced beginner game here at http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5355 please join if you think that you fit that criteria.
0 replies
Open
Rasputin31 (100 D)
24 Aug 08 UTC
Shot, Stabbed or Drowned?
Join my game! Its to die for!
6 replies
Open
prospero811 (100 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
Convoy Rules - Kiel
Can an army in, say, Norway, on a fleet through the Nth Sea, on another fleet through the Heligoland Bight, on another fleet through the Baltic, and land in Berlin without stopping for a turn at Kiel.

In the rule book, the close up views of Kiel seem to indicate that the Heligoland Bight includes the Kiel canal and the little bit of water on the eastern side of Kiel. So, it seems to me that convoying through there should be possible, but I've not found an explanation that covers that.

What does everyone think?
2 replies
Open
hermanobrown (925 D)
25 Aug 08 UTC
GMT- 3 begin at 10:00 am until 05:00 pm 30 minutes
Hi. I want to start a game with 30 minutes/ round. The idea is that the game will have 72h/round just to no post a turn in weekend. But, every player needs (during the week since 10:00 am until 05:00 pm) post his orders in 30 minutes / turn, On this way the game will have 30 minutes x turn but will not have end of turn on weekend or during the night. For this I am using the GM -3. Who wants???
1 reply
Open
aoe3rules (949 D)
23 Aug 08 UTC
New Game
for moderately skilled players. 50-bet PPSC. post here if interested; password will be emailed.
13 replies
Open
Close thread button at top as well as bottom of open threads
Can we please have such a button? With really long threads it can be difficult to find the button to close it.
11 replies
Open
fidel (886 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
Where can I get the code to give it a look?
I want to look at the code of the site, just to see how complex is it, and if I can help somehow.
Where should I look for it?
And the variations? Are all discussed here? Or there is some system for group development or something?

(It is likely this have been discussed before, but, why not to use some forum system as phpBB or similar? It is really messy to follow some conversations here... ;-).
5 replies
Open
Yaniv (1323 D(S))
26 Aug 08 UTC
Question re what a fleet can and cannot do
A fleet leaves harbour to venture into waters occupied by an opposing fleet, and she does this with no support. Normally the first fleet would be bounced back from whence she came.
But, what if simultaneously, the opposing fleet conveys an army into the harbour from whence the first fleet floated from. As the first fleet was unable to dislodge its enemy fleet, does the opposing army that was conveyed now occupy the first fleet's harbour? And if so, does that mean that the first fleet retreats to any unoccupied adjascent space contiguous to both (a) its harbour and (b) the water into which it first attempted to sail?
8 replies
Open
Treefarn (6094 D)
25 Aug 08 UTC
Treefarns No Press 1 - 119 points PPSC
I've never tried No Press, so I thought I'd give it a try. Anyone else interested, come join.

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5326
1 reply
Open
xgongiveit2ya55 (789 D)
26 Aug 08 UTC
Treefarns NO PRESS 1
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5326

Please join, as I doubt I'll work up the guts to join again if it fails to start
1 reply
Open
ava2790 (232 D(S))
22 Aug 08 UTC
Complicated support question
Let's suppose I want to play the following moves this turn:

A War-Gal
A Boh S A War-Gal
A Gal S A Boh holds

What would happen if:

1. A Vie-Boh
2. A Vie-Boh AND A Tyr S A Vie-Boh
4 replies
Open
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