Warden? How was I "out of hand" toward krellin?

No worries if you missed my first comment or this follow-up. I'm over it.

Guards! Guards! Arrest that man!

To be fair to Maher, he/she joined in January, and I don't recall that we've had a good censorship flamewar like this since before then. That said, I'm with zultar and Valis on this one.

On a slightly different subject, how did bo and ssorenn become mortal enemies?

Jeff, when you openly ask the mod team to ban krellin all you do is further incite flame while toeing behind the line yourself. Nothing in the posts crosses a line per se, but it seems like you're purposefully baiting krellin into a frothing rage. (Which, I have to admit he went into.)

I have a couple brothers who follow almost the exact same pattern regularly, with one with slightly less self control is carefully led into a rage by the other until there is violence. The way I see it, in situations like that both are at fault.

Maybe I'm likening the current situation between you and krellin too much to one where I actually do know enough background to reach a conclusion beyond the immediate circumstances, but that's why I think it's not *right* to punish him and do nothing to you even if it may be the resolution called for by rules.

It also seems to me that if you ever reach the point where you think someone should be banned for their remarks, you should mute them and move on rather than continually post about them. Mute is almost like your own personal ban-hammer.

Quick, someone make Warden the knew Ombudsman.

@JK

racism against muslims

Muting doesn't accomplish anything. All that does is mean that the muter (me) can't see anything the mutee (krellin) would say about me otherwise. Trolls and bullies know they win either way because their victims are the ones who end up self-censoring. I actually had krellin on mute for a some time early on. Not too long ago I unmuted him to see if anything had changed. Clearly, no difference IMO.

I am pretty much over having direct discussions "with" krellin. It's pretty much impossible since he is so over the top with insults every other word. Not worth the time.

My comments were not directed at him at all, and yet he continued to attack me full on. If he has self-control issues, well, that seems to be on him afaic.

Another moderator here. I 100% agree that free speech is an important part of society. You'll get no argument from me (nor I think any member of the mod team).

However, as Zultar says every time this comes up, we are a Diplomacy site, first and foremost. We are not here to provide a political discussion forum, nor are we here to provide a troll playground.

My personal view is that while free speech is an important part of society (especially when it comes to eg government criticism), you simply don't have the right to free speech on webDiplomacy. If you go to a movie, and you keep yelling during the movie, you are not expressing your right to free speech, you are being an asshole. Similarly here - it's not "free speech" to abuse each other on the forum, and your rights are not being infringed on if you're silenced for abusing each other. We're here to play Diplomacy. Say what you want in game, but please keep it civil on the forum.

Please remember that the moderator team are both (1) volunteers and (2) human. Remember that the primary role of the team is to find and catch cheaters - the forum is low on the priority list of mod responsibilities. We're sometimes called out for not silencing some people for abusing each other, while silencing others. The simple fact is that we're mostly alerted to the forum when someone complains - and as Zultar already pointed out, we're not watching the forum 24/7. We will miss things. And, yes, sometimes a moderator will make the wrong call. We're human.

Having said that, we do care about the forum. As has regularly been pointed out, it's nice to have the forum on the front page so that discussions are visible- a lot of our BEST site features (SoW, GR challenges, tournaments) have been grown this way. However, we want to be able to have a forum we're proud of. And, as is *also* often pointed out, our forum doesn't show the site in the best light a lot of the time.

We've spent *several* hours this week discussing forum reform, and we're close to publishing a new policy which I'd like to take a quote from here:

"The guiding principle of forum moderation is that members should always be civil and respectful."

We've had a lot of discussion about how to encourage everyone to be respectful to one another, and I hope that everyone on the site can get behind this goal. We want a lively forum, but we don't want a forum that is actively unpleasant or that members intentionally avoid. We absolutely have had members leave the site over the forum.

I know this is going to be unpopular with the people who enjoy trolling (and being trolled), but basically, if you're posting to piss people off, then your posts are not welcome here. As Zultar has said, providing for trolls is not part of the site vision. If you want to abuse each other, keep it in game.

In the past couple of weeks the moderator team have been discussing site improvement at length. The recent game changes (hidden draw votes, and live game widget) have come out of that discussion, and are just the tip of the iceberg. To share some of that iceberg, we're planning to add:

* Maps that work for colourblind users
* Pre-game chat (vDip has this already)
* Ability to spectate games
* Ability to have rulebook press (no communication during retreats and builds)
* Ability to user configure some things (hide the live game widget, display the map without arrows, etc)
* Many many bug fixes and small improvements to the way features work (eg, the in-game mute feature currently can be confusing, since the error message is "sent" by the player who muted you)

Please keep a sense of perspective on this. We're not the gestapo. And, honestly, if we were, it wouldn't matter. This is a site for playing a BOARD GAME. The potential to infringe your basic rights is minimal.

We're also not the only site for playing Diplomacy. There are many excellent sites for playing- and if you feel that this one is run in a way that you don't like, you are free to take your attention elsewhere.

We're actively working and brainstorming on how to improve this site and to make it more welcoming. Remember that every time we have to write a post like this, we're catching fewer cheaters, and spending less time on new improvements to the site.

Please keep it civil on the forums. Aren't we all supposed to be diplomats?

+1 for TL;DR.....but I'm sure he's right

I'll retract the suggestion that you be silenced too Jeff, as that's clearly not called for in this instance. From what I can tell, nothing you did was against the rules, and krellin was being particularly vitriolic and I think fairly earned his silence.

My issue is with how the way your posts intermingle with krellin's. I'll use my timestamps as a marker, but at 6:58pm when you answer Tolstoy with the following: "I don't care about krellin's politics. The only thing he does is insult people. He's merely a troll and waste of everyone's time. Get rid of him." You've already called for mod attention, and I would assume muted krellin, but you reply indirectly to krellin's further raging posts with further calls to site admins. 2 hours later.

Maybe it has to do with how I don't like confrontation very much, but it just seems like a very poor way to react to the situation.

As for your latest comment "victims are the ones who end up self-censoring" I don't agree that muting a bully or troll is self-censoring. It doesn't stop you from saying anything it just stops your from listening to them.

Thanks, ssorenn. Here's the main point that I want to make:

Please keep it civil on the forum. Remember that this bullshit takes away from real work on improving the site - keeping games free of cheaters and adding new site features.

It is self-censoring in the respect that you have taken yourself out of the possibility of having any communication with the person you muted. The act of muting someone also removes any recourse you have to deal with that person if they persist in making disparaging remarks about you that you can no longer see. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away "la la la I can't hear you" style.

No worries WD. I just wanted to get your perspective as a reasonable third party. Thanks for that.

As for any supposed wrongful censorship, anyone who really thinks krellin DIDN'T deserve a temporary silence should really re-evaluate what they think this forum is for. I like krellin well enough, but I'd rather the forum be at least somewhat civil especially where there are political or ideological differences. Of course, that assumes at least some mutual respect, and only a very few people have lost all of mine.

Well Jeff, even if you're 100% vanilla townie tm, I think a lot of people can say with confidence that you're not always obviously innocent. ;)

Thanks WD and Jeff for the civil exchange. It illustrates how disagreement can be resolved.

And if ATC's post wasn't clear enough, I'll reiterate one part: "if you feel that this one is run in a way that you don't like, you are free to take your attention elsewhere."

I'm sure some old timer would say "this isn't the webDiplomacy I know." You are right. It isn't. Stay if you like but if you don't like it, let me say it again, please feel free to leave. No need for a long goodbye either. Don't waste my time, ATC's time, and other mods' time with complaints about what it used to be or how you want the forum to be this way or that.

Don't like the site and where we are going? Please feel free to leave.

##VOTE Warden

He's being too nice. I need more violence and vitriolic comments.

Also, when does Mafia start?

It's interesting to draw parallels between "Industrial Society and Its Future" and the current situation. For those who are unaware, I have been posting selections from the manifesto once a day; I think there are some powerful insights offered therein.

In particular, I should like to direct your attention to my post on 17 April. The paragraphs 114-116 outline the consequences of technology's attempts to modify human behaviour. Paragraph 116 reads as follows:

"116. Because of the constant pressure that the system exerts to modify human behavior, there is a gradual increase in the number of people who cannot or will not adjust to society’s requirements: welfare leeches, youth-gang members, cultists, anti-government rebels, radical environmentalist saboteurs, dropouts and resisters of various kinds."

While this refers primarily to society as a whole, I think it also applies to webDiplomacy.net, where our moderators wish to modify the all too human behaviour of anger and spite and where there are resisters (in the form of krellin, etc.). zultar of course offers the simple solution for those resisters simply to leave--a luxury not entirely available to those people in society at large.

I will also highlight my post from earlier today (paragraph 131). It points out that "technicians" (those people who are highly specialised) will favour their work over freedom in general when the two are in conflict. As zultar states, and as ATC echoes, this website is primarily for Diplomacy! Freedom of speech, while potentially desirable in the abstract, is secondary to the proper order and functioning of this Diplomacy site.

Lastly, there is another paragraph which I have not yet posted, but which I should like to share now:

"152. Generally speaking, technological control over human behavior will probably not be introduced with a totalitarian intention or even through a conscious desire to restrict human freedom. [28] Each new step in the assertion of control over the human mind will be taken as a rational response to a problem that faces society, such as curing alcoholism, reducing the crime rate or inducing young people to study science and engineering. [...]"

In other words, the road to serfdom is paved with good intentions!

This is of course not to imply that there exists freedom of speech--or any freedom at all--on this site (or in real life, though I suppose we can save that conversation for another day). We look to such freedoms as constraints on state action, and while the mods are capable of banning us, they can't lock us away or otherwise cause similar injury.

As such, I join with Valis: together we bend over for great justice.

Who is great justice, is he knew?

This should have happened a long, long time ago.

" This should have happened a long, long time ago. "

Amen. I've never visited a thread in which krellin posted where he didn't immediately level some completely uncalled-for ad hominem attack on somebody totally unrelated to whatever topic was being discussed. I understand these political discussions can get heated but we should be able to keep it semi-civil...

ATC is a wise man, and the way he writes it's hard not to agree with him. I will still miss the 4-chan like discussions we have here from time to time... This forum will get quite boring, but maybe it's for the best.

And as for krellin, I feel a bit special because in my first two encounters with him on the forum he didn't insult me even once, even though both times we disagreed completely. I think I might be one of the few people who started to hate krellin for his opinions, not the terrible person he is.

It's pretty lulzworthy that this forum is moderated now. An unmoderated forum was part of the core identity of WebDip back in the old days (and people complained quite a lot actually.)

Oh, I almost forgot. Fuck the man and everything he believes, but #freekrellin

So one of the things people love to complain about is unfair and inconsistant punishment. There are various reasons for this, chief among them the uncertainty of what is going to happen to you.

But i'd prefer to look at this from a behaviour and learning perspective. bF Skinner came up with the term Operant Conditioning, and used it to explain how rewards and punishments can shale behaviour, his work can be seen in understanding slot machines in casinos and that annoying beeping noise in my car (when i leave my lights on)

When it comes to reward and punishment you need to look at his data to see what is most effective (though he worked on rats and pigeons, most of his work also applies to humans) Punishment when used consistantly 100% of the time, will extinguish behaviour rather rapidly (say, electrocuting a rat when it pushes a lever) Reward on the other hand needs only be used sporadically ( random with a set ratio like in a slot machine )

Now silencing is a negative punishment - ie taking away something to discourage the behaviour - but the schedule is unreliable, becuase the mods do not verify every post before posting.

We also have positive reinforcement - in the form of +1s - which we have seen results in '+1 whoring' that is more behaviour in a manner which a user thinks will generate +1s for themself.

I would (again) propose a technical solution - if the forum is as important as you say, we should invest some time in it. In an attempt to have less moderator time wasted.

Sites like reddit have utilised great technology to focus content on the most *interesting* - though they fall prey to the same kind of +1 whoring we see here. IE people posting what they think will get them to the front page - that is biased behaviour based on the opinion of others.

Twitter is another example, very different, it only shows you what you follow/search for, rather than hosing you with all the content.

And i'm sure there are a great many other examples - the only thing i am certain of is this: old fashioned forums like this are flawed and out dated. Moderator time is wasted, and communities become frustrated by the 'only human' mods. This kills communities just as much as trolling does.

So might i recommend the formation of a team (with access to the forum database) to come up with a better way of displaying forum posts, no multiple options for better ways, that the community can then vote on.

** did i mention that annoying noise which goes off in my car if i leaves my lights on? Yeah i never hear that anymore, because the unwanted behaviour (ie leaving on my lights) has been completely extinguished.

If mods want to reduce their workload, they need to punish offenders 100% of the time and immediately (a similar solution would work for cars speeding on our roads, but i digress) Unfortunately with the subjective nature of the forum rules, and the lack of time/activity of the mods, and their being only human... This is not possible.