I'm sceptical of claims that language itself can be oppressive, but I think krellin and YHN are missing the point.

krellin, some people don't want to be called "she" or "he"; why not just call them what they like? It's no skin off your nose, really. You don't have a responsibility to ensure that everyone's gender is the same as their sex, nor are you likely to meet many people who don't. Just chill out.

YHN, pronoun introductions have less to do with being "politically correct" and more to do with accepting people who don't want to be "he" or "she". I am sympathetic to your points, but your professor and whoever else is switching to these various forms language games are (1) trying to deal with a different problem than what this thread was started about and (2) not really inconveniencing you at all.

The whole idea of special pronouns introduced in Tumblr is for kids who don't get enough of wanted attention from their parents and socially incapable adolescent people who get the wanted attention from Tumblr. If you really think about it, Tumblr (like many other places but lets remain on topic) is a cult. As someone whose second language is English, I will not be calling anyone xe/xer/xerself or other bullshit on the Internet or otherwise. If a person is transgender though I will call him/her him/her whichever s/he prefers. Shit, English language doesn't translate well with the last sentence.
Also @Shadow:
"The near universal usage of the masculine as the default pronoun can be oppressive and perpetuate patriarchal conditioning."
lolno

But I am all for languages like Russian and French having to abandon masculine/feminine/neutral stuff and move to one unified rule ;__;

I don't think it's fair to dismiss the oppressive potential of language that suggests that the "default" person is a male. Certainly, masculine words serving as the default gender-neutral DOES seem to imply that a default person is a male. Now, whether this is inherently oppressive to non-males, I'm not so sure. Is being non-default inherently disadvantageous? Non-default is not by itself a descriptor of value. It's a question of whether non-males are "special" or "the Other", and I think there are cases to be made for both.

And yes, designation of default is arbitrary, or at least seemingly so. But that's not necessarily good or bad.

As for people that want to be neither "he" nor "she": forgive me, but tough shit. There's a gender binary because there's a sex binary. Two sexes, two genders. Going beyond that, to me, seems like an exercise in fantasy. And to impose accommodation of that fantasy on others is unreasonable.

Are we willing to extend the "it's no skin off your nose" argument to all incidences of perceived identity differing from reality? If I'm Iggy Azalea and I claim my music is hip hop, are you ethically obligated to accommodate my fantasy even if it fails to line up with reality? Or is it cultural appropriation, because no matter how badly I want to be a hip-hop artist, I can never fully understand what it means to be a member of that group? Are trans people not guilty of gender appropriation?

Wow! i just joined this site and I'm really glad to see this level of conversation going on about such an important topic. I transitioned from male to female about 13 years ago. I was in graduate school at the time and discussion of transgenderism was just really starting. Even the most liberal minds, including many in the LGBT community, were completely ignorant on the topic. We found ourselves educating everyone which is good because it meant that people were finally interested in the topic on a broader level.

At that time it was very novel concept to conceive gender as being independent of biological sex. Gender-nonconforming behavior and attitudes were still pathologized in a similar way that same-sex sexual orientation was thirty years prior. It was also extreme unsafe, as it is even sometimes today. And the notion that gender was fluid and non-binary was fine for academic discourse but had no practical value whatever. For that reason most of resorted to statements like. "I was born in the wrong body." In order to try to win the support of our friends and family, proper medical attention and even the acceptance of our own peer groups.

I have heard recently that a local Planned Parenthood is dispensing hormone treatment with nothing more required than "informed consent". I recieve mine from the local VA. I am the first veteran to receive hormone therapy at this particual hospital. The hospital now has a comprehensive policy regarding the treatratment of transfolk. a lot has changed.

So now it seems that people are better able to express themselves for fluildly. Fantastic! The concept of gender neutral pronouns has been around for a long time mainly centered around feminists critiques of literature. Only recently has it been applied to referencing individuals in everyday parlance. It has always been polite to ask an individual, if one was unsure, which pronoun to use. I have`always been happy to use such occations as an education moment. They happen very infrequently now so I don't give it much thought. Sometimes I may run to the convinient store late at night in sweatpants and no makeup and get called 'sir'. I don't really pay much attention to things like that any more. A number of my friends related to me that they have had similar experiences.

Years ago I ceased to be active in the trans community. I found I was more interested in the things of day-to-day life than feminism or politics. Recently, though a friend encouraged me to attend a trans support group that had recently formed in my town. I went and found it was very different from the groups I 'grew up on'. When the group started we were asked to go around the room and say our names, our prefered pronoun and something about ourselves. I didn't quite get it but I played along. but afterwards I got to thinking. If you can't tell my preferred pronoun within three minutes of meeting me you're an idiot. And I'll be damned if I'm going to beg some 19 year-old upstart to affirm for me what gender I am. I find it humiliating and disrespectful. You should all no better.

>If I'm Iggy Azalea and I claim my music is hip hop, are you ethically obligated to accommodate my fantasy even if it fails to line up with reality?

http://i.imgur.com/pNUBdcx.gif

Excellent comparison though.

@Ramsu "If a person is transgender though I will call him/her him/her whichever s/he prefers."

If a person is transgender though I will call them whichever gender they prefer. <-- I think that is the translation you were looking for :)

Ah yes, the illusive they-pronoun. It is getting late here and it is starting to show.
See people what you are doing to us? ;__;
Every language should drop their male/female/neutral-bullshittery and move with us in the all-neutral master race languages so I won't be embarrassed like this anymore!

"Are we willing to extend the "it's no skin off your nose" argument to all incidences of perceived identity differing from reality"

In this particular instance, all you're being asked to do is say something other than "he" or "she". I'm sure you can concoct a situation in which it might not be good to indulge in someone's so-called fantasies, but that's completely irrelevant here. There is a minority of people who ask that you utter a different monosyllabic word when referring to them. Is that really something you object to?

And anyway, Iggy Azalea is hip hop, though not particularly good hip hop. Now if you had said Yung Lean . . .

@gtkat
Welcome to Webdip! This discussion certainly becomes more "real" once an actual transgendered person contributes her perspective. I confess I'm much more callous when dealing in the abstract, and I apologize for the insensitivity of some of my remarks (most of which are made with a sophist mindset). I take solace in the fact that you've already resolved not to be bothered by upstart 19-year old asshats.

@pangloss But it will snowball pretty hard after that. Why not say that I am pyrogender trifox? In this particular instance, all you're being asked to do is say something other than "male" or "female". I'm sure you can concoct a situation in which it might not be good to indulge in someone's so-called fantasies, but that's completely irrelevant here. There is a minority of people who ask that you utter a different polysyllabic words when referring to them. Is that really something you object to? (so lucky the pronoun thing at least will not be a problem here)

Also I cannot just see how Iggy's music is hip hop, I just can't. She has a few catchy songs but since all I can associate with hip hop are rappers such as Dr. Dre, Slim, Dogg, Public Enemy, Tupac, WTC et al I cannot see her music as hip hop. Her music just sounds too poppy to me. But that's just me. What constitutes as hip hop though nowadays?

@pangloss

No, I, personally, don't really have a problem with calling somebody hë or xhęr or helicopter if £he so pleases, but I don't think "it's no skin off your nose" constitutes a valid argument as to why I'm morally obligated to. If it bugs me even a little bit, why would it be wrong for me not to use that word? And if it IS wrong, I truly think you also need to be willing to call Iggy (or Yung Lean) hip hop, even if it bugs the shit out of you.

@Your Humble Narrator

Is that your preferred pronoun, 'asshat'? Is that pronounced 'ass-hat' or 'as-shat'? kidding aside thanks for the welcome. Hopefully we'll get some other transfolk on this thread with some differing perspectives. The fact that we're talking about it is very importnat though.

"But it will snowball pretty hard after that. Why not say that I am pyrogender trifox?"

Indeed. Why not?

@YHN, when I write "it's no skin off your nose", I'm not searching for moral obligation. I'm giving you a practical argument: it's not the end of the world to say "xir", it helps out the person who wants to be called "xir", and it gets you through the conversation or event in a more positive manner. There isn't a moral obligation to do . . . well . . . anything, but you're probably going to want to move on with your life rather than get hung up on pronouns.

I think you're making a mistake in thinking that there's an objective right or wrong in most situations. A lot of the definitions we use to describe things are arbitrary and not particularly objective. To use your example, there are various definitions of hip hop, and I certainly think that Iggy Azalea falls under them. But this is merely a definition of convenience, not one of essence. Gender exists in much the same way, and to insist, as you and krellin do, that we must enforce our truths upon others seems to be a bigger waste of time than asking for pronouns.

Why not say that I'm a pyrogender trifox? The same reason I'm not going to wear a campaign button for the party I don't support: I think it's pretty fucking stupid.

Perhaps more analogously: the same reason I'm not going to call you Darth Vader all the time, even if you reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally want me to and are so genuinely sick in the head that you believe you're Darth Vader rather than Bob from Accounting.

@YHN, my understanding of Ramsu's argument was that this would be a slippery slope, i.e. if we allow xir, zir, xhe, or whatever else, others might join in with increasingly complex pronouns and gender identities. My response is simply that I don't see any harm in increasingly complex pronouns and gender identities.

And I agree with your point: no one who doesn't actually believe in the pronouns they choose will opt into them.

If I want to be called Darth Vader, so what? You're imposing yourself with some moral obligation to "correct" others when they're "wrong" about things that don't otherwise affect you. Why bother?

To be clear: I don't equate someone thinking dragonself to be a Reptar-kin pansexual to your standard run-of-the-mill female-gendered individual with male genitalia. But the arguments you're making as to why I ought to accommodate "standard" transfolk should not, I'd think, be universalizable to include the full spectrum of Tumblr bullshit.

It's not a matter of "bothering." You're acting as though calling that person Darth Vader is passive, rather than active. Calling him "Darth Vader" is active. Calling him "Darth Vader" is bothering. Why bother?

I do respect your being willing to take the rationale of your defense to its logical conclusion, rather than drawing the line at some arbitrarily designated point of absurdity.

@pangloss Because it is ridiculous? Since there are in fact two (2) genders (let's not traverse to the Klinefelter syndrome etc. area, we'll simplify for the sake of this discussion) calling someone "pyrogender trifox" or "anglekin" or "whatchamacallit" just feeds their delusion. People who honestly think they are such things should seek help.
But then again I too believe that "it's no skin off your nose" is not a valid argument in support of any argument. Why not? Just because. Are we back in the fourth grade?
You can feel what ever you want. But you cannot expect us to accept your truths either. Giving that argument just gets us to this roundabout which is unproductive, but very accurate on reflecting the current state of the discussion.

This whole thread adds up to mental illness.

HOW THE FU*K can you be this LOST?

Modern 'society' has done a tap-dance on your brain and you are nothing but toys for the 1% to tax and laugh at.

"But the arguments you're making as to why I ought to accommodate "standard" transfolk should not, I'd think, be universalizable to include the full spectrum of Tumblr bullshit."

To be sure, if I actually met someone in real life who identified as something seemingly absurd, I might be put off. If Emily and Alice from http://pluandfawn.tumblr.com/ turn out to be real people, I'd probably be less inclined to talk to them. However, if I am required to interact with them, like in a classroom setting or in any other activity, I'll let them clarify their pronouns and I'll adhere to them for the sake of convenience. I don't think that they actually identify as Pluto and a Fawn, but that's really none of my business, and I don't want to talk to them about it.

"It's not a matter of "bothering." You're acting as though calling that person Darth Vader is passive, rather than active. Calling him "Darth Vader" is active. Calling him "Darth Vader" is bothering. Why bother?"

It's passive in comparison to trying to fix him. Obviously if he didn't identify as Darth Vader, everyone's life would be easier. But the alternative isn't normalcy; it's getting into a ridiculous shouting match over nothing. Between yelling and just moving on with my life, I choose moving on.

Like I said above, there isn't really a moral obligation to do anything. But your life will involve fewer fights with strangers if you just keep swimming.

"Because it is ridiculous? Since there are in fact two (2) genders (let's not traverse to the Klinefelter syndrome etc. area, we'll simplify for the sake of this discussion) calling someone "pyrogender trifox" or "anglekin" or "whatchamacallit" just feeds their delusion. People who honestly think they are such things should seek help."

I fail to see where I have an obligation to do anything about other people's "delusions". You want to identify as a dragon? Be my guest. If I need to talk to you on a frequent basis, I'll probably just use your preferred pronouns so I don't have to talk about your gender identity.

"But then again I too believe that "it's no skin off your nose" is not a valid argument in support of any argument. Why not? Just because. Are we back in the fourth grade?
You can feel what ever you want. But you cannot expect us to accept your truths either. Giving that argument just gets us to this roundabout which is unproductive, but very accurate on reflecting the current state of the discussion."

I feel that I've been clear insofar as I'm not advocating that everyone believe in other people's gender identities. All I'm saying is that for practical purposes, it would be beneficial for everyone to just go with it.

But in the same vain, would it not be more practical for the Tyrranid-Ork-kin not to insist everyone call *___{{][**+^_ a Tyrranid-Ork? I guess I agree that at some point somebody's gotta be the bigger fawn and just let this shit go, as you said, for practicality's sake, but... fuck. I want to get into a shouting match with *____{{][**+^_ about it.

I agree on the practical purposes thing, ie. in a classroom setting it is better to go along with nearly any bullshittery just to speed it up and it to be over, but I was thinking more broadly. Also you are correct that you don't have any obligation to other people's delusions, bad example on my part. But *I* still maintain the line that him/her are sufficient pronouns in English language and that zexetexmex-thing that has started to circulate from the Internet to the real world should stop as I see nothing good coming out of it. And it is fucking crazy. I for one would be extremely put off by a date who would start off by saying "btw my preferred pronouns are texmex/texmexs/texmexselves" (God forbid if she says anything about being otherkin). The date would be instantly over and I would not want to have further interaction with said person. But luckily this seems to be only an issue stateside.