Go through the threads from a few weeks back. Krellin posted the link and then some of us on both sides discussed it a lot more civilly than you are doing with your "fuck off" bullshit.

"Do we have to cover this again?"

I don't know, Draug...how many times do you think people will champion an amendment in serious need of an update and material possessions over the lives of their fellow countrymen?

See, that's the part I have a hard time coming to grips with in terms of those on your side of this issue...

Not that you like guns (that's fine, to each they're own, all well and good when used responsibly, nothing inherently evil...well, mapleleaf's inherently a douche, but still) and not even that you're anti-gun control...I'm obviously for it, but it's a two-sided debate for sure--

What *I* don't get is the timing and doggedness of your position, and those on your side, in the face of SHOOTING AFTER SHOOTING AFTER SHOOTING.

It's a bit like saying that nobody's going to force YOU to wear a helmet while riding a motorcylce...because bu God, this is 'muricah, and the guv'ment's not gonna tell YOU what to do, nope, no sir...

Not after the first time you crash and smack your head...
Not after the second time...
Not after the third time...
Not after the tenth time...
Not after the tenth time in a single year...
Not after it's happened so often in a single year you've started to lose count...

Because in America, by God, we're the home of the free and the land of the brave and the government shouldn't interfere with people's legal rights!

(Accept when it comes to preventing gays from marrying or going to every length to prevent abortion...I mean, THOSE are rights that are perfectly OK to go after!)

Frankly, such a stance makes America as a whole look like Lindsay Lohan--

Past its prime, no longer the star it once was, more notorious than note-worthy, in the papers for all the wrong reasons these days, and most telling of all...

Like Lohan, Lady Liberty's in denial, and refuses to admit she has a problem in the first place (or, as an alternative, the problem is ALWAYS something else...it's always anything and everything BUT the guns themselves...in much the same way an addict will blame just about everything BUT themselves and their substance of choice for their tripping down the stairs repeatedly before falling in a puddle of their own puke.)

Gun-toting America...you sound callous, you sound ignorant, in both cases you sound all the more so by repeating your stance no matter how many times this happens...and you need help.

But, hey--don't shoot the messenger.

The United States of Amerikkka was founded by White Supremacists.

You get what you get.....

tl;dr;

You should know Obi, that most of us stop reading your writing and look at the length, then say "fuck it, not worth it". Learn to actually organize your thoughts and write coherent, logical, succinct statements.

Oh, I will say stick to the topic at hand. I'm all for gay rights. And it is so hypocritical to be all about gun control to save lives when you'll just punch in an unborn child's skull and vacuum them out not caring about their right to life.

That would depend on at what point you consider the fetus to be a child.

Nope, not going to go for the tu quoque you've offered, Draug. You offer to stay on topic, then immediately go for a fallacious distraction. This is one topic, one issue.

I'm not gonna look up that old stuff, I don't disbelieve you, I was just curious to see for myself if you had it handy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiQh51gdsLQ

Help save the youth of America
Help save them from themselves
Help save the sun-tanned surfer boys
And the Californian girls

When the lights go out in the rest of the world
What do our cousins say
They're playing in the sun and having fun, fun, fun
Till daddy takes the gun away

From the big church to the big river
And out to the shining sea
This is the land of opportunity
And there's a Monkey Trial on TV

A nation with their freezers full
Are dancing in their seats
While outside another nation
Is sleeping in the streets

Don't tell me the old, old story
Tell me the truth this time
Is the man in the mask or the Indian
An enemy or a friend of mine

Help save the youth of America
Find more similar lyrics on http://mp3lyrics.com/uYsHelp save the youth of the world
Help save the boys in uniform
Their mothers and their faithful girls

Listen to the voice of the soldier
Down in the killing zone
Talking about the cost of living
And the price of bringing him home

They're already shipping the body bags
Down by the Rio Grande
But you can fight for democracy at home
And not in some foreign land

And the fate of the great United States
Is entwined in the fate of us all
And the incident at Tschernobyl proves
The world we live in is very small

And the cities of Europe have burned before
And they may yet burn again
And if they do, I hope you understand
That Washington will burn with them
Omaha will burn with them
Los Alamos will burn with them

Surely if you right-wing extremists defend the right for people to carry guns you also defend the right to abortion, why the hypocrisy?
Of course you are not seen as extremists in your own country, just everywhere else in the world apart from Israel, who think you are all pinko liberals....
Does it mention anywhere in the holy scriptures, sorry I mean your 200-year-old constitution, that you can't have abortions. If the holy book doesn't mention it then what is the issue with abortion?

*Facepalm*

"You should know Obi, that most of us stop reading your writing and look at the length, then say "fuck it, not worth it". Learn to actually organize your thoughts and write coherent, logical, succinct statements."

I do know that, Draug--

So I'm generally happy to talk to those that are willing to be patient and take the time to sit, read, think, and respond.

There's something to be said for succinctness, but there's likewise something to be said for patience. I wade through the big posts when others make them...

So really, I expect no more or less than I do myself.

"And it is so hypocritical to be all about gun control to save lives when you'll just punch in an unborn child's skull and vacuum them out not caring about their right to life."

Wow, what a profound, well thought out, and mature way to describe the complex and nuanced topic of abortion!

Punch in a fetus' skull?
No.
Abort when the organism is a collection of cells?
That's up to a woman...it's her body, her choice.

She can do whatever she wants to HER body...

Whereas guns are shooting the bodies of OTHERS full of holes...

And ya know, I don't think they gave consent for that, and I know it's controversial, but I find that wrong somehow, shooting someone without their consent, and then blaming everything BUT the gun.

It's callous, cold, cruel, cowardly, disingenuous, and the American people deserve better than those who'll stand up for the rights of a bit of metal and a 200+ year old law rather than the lives of innocent Americans when there's an EPIDEMIC of gun violence in this country...and this is, what, the third shooting in nearly as many weeks, and that's just this past month? Don't tell me it's NOT an epidemic.

If you're anti-abortion, I disagree with you, but I can respect your choice, so long as you respect a woman's right to her body.

But if you're going to blame everything BUT the flood of guns in this country for the epidemic of gun violence...then quite frankly, I find that shameful.

Is that succinct enough for you?

"shooting someone without their consent, and then blaming everything BUT the gun."

HahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahHHahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guns don't go off by themselves. People pull the trigger. Guns aren't to blame,. People are.

Draug people are to blame but call me old-fashioned, I can't help but think if the person who shot the gun didn't actually have a gun and couldn't actually get hold of a loaded gun, would that gun murder have taken place?
Of course there are other callous cold-blooded murders taken place every day such as don't treat the person without the medical insurance but I don't think you call that murder, just being poor....

If not a gun, a knife. If not a knife, a rope/cord. If not a rope/cord, a big rock. Man has been killing man since the dawn of man, long before the Chinese developed gun powder.

Why don't we ban cars? Cars kill people. Let's ban the sun, too. The dang thing is too hot and causes skin cancer.

BAN MAINSTREAM MEDIA.

All of this is politicizing. The second amendment and public education are moot points. I will say nothing here about how mind-control works.

Ever since people had the ego and will to kill another person we have had murders with clubs, spears, bow-and-arrow, swords, muskets, etc. etc. up to Glocks. Take away the weapon you do not take away the will. The technology of combat need be available to citizenry lest the government become tyrannical. The Constitution postulates that it is not merely our RIGHT to dismantle a tyranny within the government, but our RESPONSIBILITY. Tell me, against the B-2 stealth bomber, the Patriot cruise missle, the Marine, how will any well-trained militia stand? With club, spear, and sword?

Cars etc. are not manufactured for the purpose of killing. Ditto ropes and knives.

The 2A friendly crowd is AWFULLY stupid....

For the record, I am pro-second-amendment and pro-choice. Mind-boggling? Nah, freedom. Aside from the deliberate shirking of spirituality, Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism is pretty solid. Anti-war, anti-violence (pleases the liberals). Anti-socialism, anti-government (pleases the conservatives). Anti-God (sends the whole philosophy into some sort of Self-based Buddhism -- go figure).

Care to go toe-to-toe, Canada?

Let us talk about what is manufactured for the purpose of killing -- the government. The only legal role of any government is that of violence. Either by the act or threat of violence, the government functions -- AND ON NOTHING ELSE.

YOUR government functions for that purpose, pal. That's for sure.

Governments are intended, however, to be agents of GOOD.

Ayn Rand was a simple soul; I'll give her that.

@Tru-Ninja - "... their parents bought them GTA which contains nudity, violence against police? Drug use, profanity and all kinds of crap that I wouldn't allow in my home for ME to play."

Tell me about it. There's this one game, that will remain nameless, that actually simulates killing by the 10s of thousands rather than individually. It is santized so kids are removed from the horrors of their actions. To advance in the game kids are encouraged to lie and cheat and to manipulate other people. You can't possibly win the game without these traits - what kind of lesson does that send our kids?

"Let us talk about what is manufactured for the purpose of killing -- the government. The only legal role of any government is that of violence. Either by the act or threat of violence, the government functions -- AND ON NOTHING ELSE."

Fucking hospitals and roads. All this helpful infrastructure will kill me if I'm not careful.

Guys stop being apologists for murder, a persons life is the most valuable asset they have, anything that minimises the chance of them getting murdered or killed they will support, some ignorant survivors always see this as someone elses problem, until it happens to them.
How would you feel now if one of your friends or relatives were shot and killed, would you still be so gung-ho, the ignorance and arrogance is outstanding.
It's true what they say, all the money in the world can't buy you class .....

@dD Shock Trooper
"Fucking hospitals and roads. All this helpful infrastructure will kill me if I'm not careful."

I said that the only way the government functions is by force. I stand by this because it may pay for roads and hospitals, yes, however any funds that the government comes to accrue it does so through taxation. Anything that the government pays for comes from taxes.

And we all know that if you don't pay your taxes the government will come down on you and MAKE you pay your taxes. The government will forcibly take your property if you decline to pay your taxes. Moreover, you could face imprisonment against your will (a physical violation of your rights -- violence).

@mapleleaf

I am disappointed at the lack of substance in your reply to me. Yes, governments are intended to be agents of good. I will not argue with you there. Again, substance, my Canadian friend. Good show back there calling the "crowd" who defends the second amendment "AWFULLY stupid."

Mapleleaf. Moreover, I will agree with you that Ayn Rand was a simple soul. However, she provided the best case for reason since Aristotle. And reason has its place, as everything does. I always maintain that Ayn Rand's philosophy would have resonated with many more had she done psychedelics (just once or twice, even!).