I hate the thinking that has dominated the post WW1 world - that peace can only happen by separating populations. How is it that traditionally many populations could function perfectly well together (I'm thinking Ottoman Empire) and now all of a sudden they can't live next to each other?

Ow Putty Putty Putty.

Yes, okay, yes. Because you like to hear it so much: yes. The Netherlands and the Ukraine are two perfectly comparable countries in the exact same part of the world and having virtually the same situation in terms of economic development, presence of foreign military, allegiance to Russia and linguistic and cultural divides.

If one country decides to split in half, then so should the other.

Now, will you please, please, please leave my thread? TY

@Putin

Didn't I tell you to stop talking about Dutch politics so as to prevent making a fool of yourself again?

First off, those elections were provincial elections. They have the lowest turnout of any Dutch elections because most Dutch don't give a fuck or know jack shit about provincial politics.

Secondly, the Northern provinces aren't industrial. They are rural.

Thirdly, those red PvdA areas in the sea provinces happen to be where the major cities are. They may be geographically smaller than the blue VVD areas, but it's where most the people live. Overall the PvdA and the VVD do about equally well in those provinces, albeit that the election you quoted happened to be an exceptional good one for the VVD so in that particular case they where larger than the PvdA in both provinces. Still only by a rather small margin.

I missed the hilarity other than thinking ulytau was from Asia. Maybe Americans posing as Dutch people have a unique sense of humor.

The hilarity is how Draugnar is frothing from the mouth, to use one of krellin's phrases (I'm sure ulymoron will appreciate me doing so).

"If one country decides to split in half, then so should the other."

Thanks for missing the point.

^It's actually true what oscar says Putty.

"The eastern provinces have some differing industrial characteristics which are also important for our full understanding of the impact of class on Dutch voting patterns. The northern provinces in the east, most importantly Groningen, has suffered much due to economic restructuring. Groningen province, and specifically the city of Groningen itself has the highest unemployment rate in the Netherlands. The provinces of Groningen and Drenthe are "post-industrialized" zones where the majority of employment does remain in the industrial sectors rather than in raw materials or services sectors, but a large number of people are out of work. We may meaningfully contrast these provinces with some of the other provinces in the eastern part of the country. The province of Friesland, also in the northeast part of the country, is largely comparable to Groningen and Drenthe in terms of unemployment, but is more involved in the raw materials sector and in industrial sectors closely related to the raw materials sector (in other words, in the Frisian context, agribusiness.) The remainder of the eastern provinces, most importantly Limburg but also to some extent Gelderland and North Brabant, are provinces where industry is still very profitable and employment is high (de Pater et al. 1989; Grote Bosatlas 2000).

We might properly classify this eastern part of the Netherlands by means of two classifications - in the northern part of the zone we have what amounts to the Netherlands' "periphery", a zone of deindustrialization or primary production, associated with economic deprivation; in the southern part of the zone, we have the industrial backbone of the country, located strategically near the ports of the western Netherlands and the delta, the Rhine-Waal-Maas area, and the Rhine-Ruhr industrial megalopolis in western Germany. "

http://www.filosofie.science.ru.nl/ci/e-journal/vol1/ea12.html

So yeah that says that the industrial part of the East is near the rivers (Rhine-Waal-Maas), i.e. in the South, while in the North (Groningen, Drenthe) a lot of industrial workers are unemployed (not surprising since, as I've said before, it's mostly a rural area).

So, this begs the question, what was the fucking point of that quote?

http://welections.wordpress.com/2011/03/03/netherlands-provincial-2011/

BTW turnout in the provincial elections was 56%. By contrast European parliament elections was 37%.

So I guess Oscar the genius doesn't know what he's talking about.

The point was that the east of the Netherlands is the industrial/post-industrial areas.

I specifically said Dutch elections, i.e. not European ones which I know full well have an even lower turnout.

And btw those 56% where exceptionally high for provincial elections due to them having an unusually large impact on national politics. Turnouts of previous provincial elections were well below 50%.

Give it up Putin33. There's no way you are gonna outwit me about Dutch politics.

So they have the lowest turnout except for other elections which have much lower turnout. Great. And "most Dutch" don't care or know anything except "most Dutch" seem to actually be voting in them in 2011.

Turnout for regional elections in 2003 and 2007 was 47% and 46%. Well below" 50% indeed.

This is what you said Putin: "PvdA strongholds are in the industrial land provinces of the northeast."

So you thought the North-East was industrial, which I told you it was not and the quote you then posted confirmed my position.

"The point was that the east of the Netherlands is the industrial/post-industrial areas."

So that's just you changing your story. You're still wrong though because the industrial/post-industrial area of the Netherlands is in the Western Sea provinces where almost half the population of the country lives. For instance Rotterdam is one of the largest harbors in the world and it has by far the highest concentration of Dutch industry, while Amsterdam has the by far the largest concentration of financial sector businesses.

The only part of the East that is industrialized is along the rivers because that is a strategic location to transport goods over water to and from the Rotterdam harbor and Germany.

If you even knew the first fuck about Dutch politics Putin you would realize that the reason more people voted for the provincial elections in 2011 was because they were exceptionally relevant for national politics. In the Netherlands the Senate is indirectly elected by the provincial MP's and in 2011 it was gonna be a close call whether or not the national government would have a majority in the Senate. So, it is still the case that most Dutch don't give a fuck or know jack shit about provincial politics.

Did you read that link, from the same link in the first paragraph:

" The liberal party (known as the VVD) is dominant along the provinces of the western coast of the Netherlands. These provinces may be described as the "sea provinces" due the fact that, were it not for a great many dikes, dams and civil engineering projects which have been built over the centuries, this part of the Netherlands would be under water. The social democratic party (known as the PvdA) is dominant in the "land provinces" which are located in the industrial and post-industrial northern and eastern part of the Netherlands. These provinces are located a short distance from Dutch port cities to the west and the Rhine-Ruhr industrial area to the southeast. The christian democratic party (known as the CDA) is dominant in the "land provinces" in the southern and central part of the Netherlands. These provinces are mostly agricultural."

I should add to that that the national government at the time was a highly controversial one that included the islamophobic PVV in their majority.

Then tell me Putin, if the VVD is so dominant in the sea provinces, then how did the PvdA win the provincial elections in the province South-Holland in 2003 while the CDA won them in 2007?

Note that South-Holland is the largest province of the Netherlands by population.

About a quarter of Dutch people live there.

VVD is the largest party in South-Holland so how is my point contradicted?

How can you look at that map and tell me the VVD doesn't dominate the sea provinces? VVD is the largest party in North-Holland, South-Holland, Zeeland, and Utretcht.

http://welections.wordpress.com/2011/03/03/netherlands-provincial-2011/

I guess it's all an illusion there is no geographic tendencies in Dutch politics.

The VVD won one particular election (2011) in South-Holland by a small margin. That does not make them dominant. Especially as they had not won in South-Holland in the two previous elections. It's amazing to what lengths you will go to avoid admitting that you are wrong.

And yes there are some geographical tendencies in Dutch politics, just not the ones you think there are and certainly none that provide any party with even closely enough votes to have a majority in any particular region.

National elections in Netherlands results in South-Holland

Largest party
2012 - VVD with 28% of vote
2010 - VVD with 22.5% of vote
2006 - CDA with 24% of vote
2003 - PvdA with 23% of vote
2002 - CDA with 23% of vote
1998 - VVD with 28% of vote
1994 - VVD with 23% of vote

http://www.nlverkiezingen.com/TK1998P.html

The whole point, Oscar, was that dumbass foreigners shouldn't be speculating about partitioning other countries when that sentiment has never been expressed by the people themselves. That was obvious to everyone except you.

Again, that just supports my position that they are not dominant. Unless you wish to argue that a party that usually wins less than a quarter of the votes should be called dominant. Especially if you take into account the second largest party in those elections the statement that the VVD is dominant in South-Holland is clearly incorrect.

Also, your data is incorrect. I suggest next time you wish to look up Dutch election results you go to the website of the Kiesraad, the official Dutch institution that runs the elections.

National elections in the Netherlands, results in South-Holland
Largest and second largest party.
2012 - VVD 28%, PvdA 23%
2010 - VVD 22%, PvdA 19%
2006 - CDA 24%, PvdA 20%
2003 - PvdA 26%, CDA 25%
2002 - CDA 24%, LPF 22%
1998 - VVD 28%, PvdA 28%
1994 - VVD 23%, PvdA 22%

Note that from 2002 to 2006 the VVD wasn't even the second largest party. Way to be dominant. Furthermore note that the margin with which they won from the PvdA in 1994 and 1998 was extremely small. In 2010 and 2012 the margin was somewhat larger but still not nearly so large that it would justify calling them dominant.

"The whole point, Oscar, was that dumbass foreigners shouldn't be speculating about partitioning other countries when that sentiment has never been expressed by the people themselves. That was obvious to everyone except you."

That was your point. My point was that you don't know shit about Dutch politics (or the Congo).

And btw I agree with your point. I already said as much earlier.

Governor of Zuid Holland has been a member of the VVD since 1994. If that's your best example of how the sea provinces aren't liberal then cool.