all right fine, I doubt that, but since I'm to lazy to look for a course, I'll assume you are right. That doesn't change the fact that modern governments are based on Roman law more so than Byzantine law

That's bafflingly ironic.

The above being directed at ND re: bias.

Just do a bit of reading about the influences of Byzantine Law. Thx.

"The actually theological differences between the two are surprisingly trivial."
And also existed for quite a while pre-Schism :)

That's funny TrPrado. You are probably the most biased person here against the Byzantine Empire.

@ND that we aren't bias. Why would we be bias the one Greek civ over another?

It confuses me why you think the religion argument favors the Byzantines, ND.

From a pure numbers standpoint, Orthodoxy has not done as well in modern times as have other major world religions, despite it having inherited a large number of pre-Schism followers and being the state religion of the big, bad Byzantine Empire all the way up until its collapse 563 years ago. For comparison, 563 years after Athens lost the Peloponnesian War, the Hellenistic pantheon was still widely worshiped throughout the Roman Empire (often with their Roman names, but the direct Greek influence is undeniable). I don't think that's really a compelling point in favor of the Byzantines.

@Ghug: How many of these Athenian pagan worshipers are around today in our modern world? Compare that number to the amount of Eastern Orthodox believers. Which has a greater practical effect on our modern world? The hundreds of millions of Orthodox believers or the near zero amount of practicing Athenian pagans?

It's disturbing that this remote backwater is going to win. Very disturbing for this forum and also a failing symptom that I can only associate with our terrible U.S. public education system.

Refer to my point on Greek influence of the spread of Christianity for response to that, ND.

ho9w many times do I have to tell you. Athenian religious influence is concerning Christianity NOT their pagan theology, though that is still quite influential: case and pont: Renaissance art

AND Hellenization is considered the start of western civilization, and Hellenization is the spreads of Athenian culture.

actually that is a good point. The Byzantine's probably were the genesis and cause for the renaissance. http://larsbrownworth.com/blog/2010/03/29/were-the-byzantines-responsible-for-the-renaissance/

However much Byzantium influenced Western Culture in could not have done so more than it's founding culture

Without them and the fall of Constantinople it probably wouldn't have even occurred. Thus no western civilization as we know it today. But, I am sure the biased Athenian people here will come up with something ridiculous.

the fall of Constantinople is pivotal, you're right, but the Renaissance is still the rediscovery of Athenian ideas, so that is actually a point against you

I don't think so. IF you would read the article you would see that there is some historical discussion that Byzantine emigres. Let me repeat: BYZANTINE emigres after the fall helped spur, start, and help shape the renaissance.

Unfortunately the article does not mention the time traveling 5th century BC Athenian 's that started the renaissance. No, it mentions the Byzantine's that started it after fleeing Constantinople after the fall.

I agreed with you ND Byzantium is responsible for the start of the renaissance, at least partially. BUT do you know what the Renaissance is?

But it was ATHENIAN ideas that led to the Renaissance. Not just the Renaissance, by the way, but also the GOLDEN AGE OF ISLAM, with the same ideas, before the Renaissance, before the fall of Constantinople. Athens had a far larger impact with their ideas than just in the West.

a "rebirth" of Athenian culture and ideas

It was a lot more than the "rediscovery of Athenian ideas" lol. To simply it as that shows clear bias.

"our terrible U.S. public education system."

Ah yes, I often forget that you're a teacher.


In seriousness though, you missed my point. You can't ignore the fact that the Byzantine Empire fell nearly two millennia after Athens did. If you adjust for time as I did, you see that the Hellenistic religion was at least as successful as Orthodoxy after the same amount of time, probably more so, and that's to say nothing of the impact Athens can claim on early Christianity.

@ND alright fine, you're right it IS more than that, but still it is at least mostly the "rebirth of ancient Greek art and ideas, right?

Yes. I am a teacher and I can tell you from the experience that the system is terrible. As to your other point. Okay. I am not disputing that the Hellenism was not influential. It was, but Athens is not solely responsible for that. To say that Athens is entirely responsible is a gross oversimplification of history.

Tr has a good point I forgot. Not only is it influential for Christian Culture, but it is influential for Muslim culture as well.

@ND Athens isn't responsible for Hellenization, the Macedonians are. BUT the ideas spread were mostly Athenian

and ND I agree Common Core is terrible

@Hall of Mandos: More like Classical Antiquity which includes way more than Athens. Another gross oversimplification to fit an agenda I see.