I dont think we should underestimate ND as being dangerous. He has avoided major cases and has basically tunnelled Vecna absurdly all game. A scum flip by ND may reveal if Vecna is actually his teammate in fact.

When I say avoided I mean levied against him.

Interestingly, we lynched an un-CCed PR claim in that game too, and it was scum bo. Krellin was there too! Loads of fun.

ND's proclivity for lynching UNccd PR changes from D2 to D4 when he believes Warden when OBGYN was claiming Sniper. When it was y2k claiming where was the anti lynch a PR instincts?

ND voting history pre EOD 5. keep in mind EOD5 his vote remained on Vecna.

ND - Day 1, redeer for most of the day. Starts Vecna wagon and ends on it. D2, joins y2k wagon (ghug, krellin, Jamiet had been on/off. Warden on at time of vote). Ends on y2k wagon. D3, Starts captainmeme wagon (goldfinger, OB, brainbomb). 3rd to vote for xorxes (Maniac, OB [Chaqa on/off]). Ends on wagon. D4, 6th on Warden wagon. 1st on OB counter-wagon. Ends on OB (possibly due to hammer).
Days ended on wagons: 2, Days ended on counter-wagons: 1

I actually find this ND argument kind of compelling.

@krellin - what do you think of guak's case on ghug? I know you're scum-reading Vecna at the moment, but guak does have a point - Vecna can't be janitor. That's 1/2 mafia roles he can't be, so while we should keep it in the back of our minds, this is not something to pursue tomorrow.

@ND - guak has laid out his case for ghug in full. Can you repost your case on Vecna?

@ghug - who are your scum reads. Or have I missed you posting them?

@Captain - what do you think of Vecna's idea that the scum is among you, me, krellin and ghug?

So, here's my reads on everyone left.

goldfinger - town, but playing pretty terribly. Shouldn't have lynched PR on Day 2. Should've caught on sooner than 5 minutes before EOD that Jamiet probably wasn't scum.

ghug - Null at the moment. In the earlier days I had him as my second strongest town read and was pretty interested in what he's had to say. But I don't see him doing as much case building as I remember him doing in previous mafia games. Especially since Day 2 he's been a bit quieter. Someone to watch closesly

Captainmeme - slight scum. I hate his play behavior. Just comes online an hour before the phase and plops his vote down on the leading train. Moreover, all his "participation" has just been tunneling on me and trying to convince everyone to lynch me (as well as not going for a no-lynch)

Vecna - slight town. The role-block claim was true, so he can't be janitor. Drops it from a 2/8 to a 1/8 chance he's mafia, and he's been pretty helpful to the town so far (Despite not being online at EOD). Keep pressuring him, but I would not be part of the lynch.

ND - slight scum. He's lurking, as well as tunneling on Vecna. He keeps asking people to go back and read his case rather than continually building it as Vecna does more actions. Could just be a lazy town, but he's certainly not helping the town much.

brainbomb - null. his voting and his posts suggest two different things. His voting behavior is very scummy - just jumping from wagon to wagon. But his press - while spammy at times - seems innocent enough. Have yet to see him really lead a train though.

redeer1 - town. Just a really, really shitty town who has realized that he's actively hurting the town just by being alive.

guak - slight town. Lurking hard, but he's come out of it today and is finally elaborating on his ghug case, and I like what he's saying.

krellin - town. He's spammy and OMGUS-y but I think he has the town's best interests at heart and is doing more than most to scum hunt.

Goldfinger excuses him here too. curious? ND was vehement that he was not prepared to lynch an unccd PR on D4. Remained the lone vote on Obgyn and no Goldfinger; the thread does not show ND was left there due to hammer at all. It implies knowing a bit too much. read NDs comments at the Scum flip of Warden.

@brainbomb - I don't remember ND being online and posting when everyone hammered. I certainly was not. I can go back and double-check, though. It was speculation, since I just did all that analysis from the vote tracker and not the thread.

You and that fucking vote tracker. Thats the problem with that tool. Half the time you dont have it updated. remember EOD 4 I asked why only certain people had color differentials. Why use a tool if you dont bother to supply any words or context to it? Why cover for ND by saying he wasnt there when the hammer dropped when he was and was actually the only person vocally against doing so (which is a contradiction of prior behavior bigtime)

@goldie

1. I don't know that I *actually* think Vecna is scum. I saw something he did that I didn't like. I called him on it. I waited for his reply. He replied. I don't care for his reply (he was resistant to actually defend what I pointed out....). but I'll leave that to others to interpret.

2. Ghug v. Guak -- it's like Hillary versus Bernie, right? Something to love in both of them. Both try hard. Both *skilled* players. As for myself, I am definitely interested in "behavior" patterns as much or more so than voting patterns. As such, I think there is something interesting about what has been pointed out about ghug behavior patterns.

It is actually difficult to not react and change behavior. It is difficult to play a role and be consistent about it (again, this is why I distrust Vecna somewhat...he tried the minimal input role, and is not accidently shed his cover because something spooked him possibly...???). But ghug has been consistent WITHIN HIMSELF this game.

There is an acknowledgement that ghug's game is fluid -- it changes from game to game, and it changes based upon role. But that fact that there is NO such thing as a "consistent" ghug makes it difficult to fully attribute guilt to him solely based upon comparison to another game. I just don't think that's fair. I think he has put forth a valiant effort this game.

Now...you will point out that I have applied this same standard to Vecna, whom I accused to confessing to operating under the same scum behavior this game that he exhibited in another game. I did this because Vecna HIMSELF uses the standard of comparing a person from another game to this game...and I *truly* believe that a man should be judged by his own measure. Fruedian slip? is Vecna revealing that he believes past predict future, and in so doing indicted himself?

Very possibly.

But ghug is NOT a definitive "past predicts future" player. He changes, we all acknowledge he changes, and he has not changed WITHINT THIS game.

So....I find the ghug case interesting...but not compelling.

***

If anything...I hate to say it....but I think I am on the verge of clearing BOTH guak and ghug for the thouroughness of their analysis and the true heart they demonstrate AND HAVE CONSISTENTLY DEMONSTRATED THIS GAME to find the scum.

so....


.....who has NOT been consistent. Who has not been consistent to this game, withint this game, and to themselves. Who's own actions and words have betrayed their own dark inner soul????

I understand your tool is to appear towny and well intentioned but thus far this game you must admit you havent kept it properly updated. Im not saying we dont have lives but come on. Your using a tool to make blanket statements without even having any dialogue behind it.

@Goldie -- damn, I kind of hate your reads. lol.

/\ For obvious reasons I hate them, just to clarify -- you and I disagree completely about our top scum reads. But at least we like each other!! :)

Not feeling too good right now, so I'm going to have an early night. I will respond to stuff in the morning. I'll get to answering q's in the morning.

I want to talk to Gold more tomorrow. For now he's still the person I would lynch tomorrow.

From the Maf QT.
(ND + Krellin)
https://youtu.be/16bGLMEtAww

@Goldfinger: Case is on 145. It’s pretty big and I don’t want to repost it over and over which would be spamming the thread. Please scroll back and look it over.

@Brainbomb:
Why do you have a fascination with M13? I died early and didn’t do much. Pretty much the same as M8 where I was the Janitor role? Are you going to compare me to that game as well? Why don’t you compare my voting pattern in this game to all of my other games? I am fairly sure you are going to see that I always vote my top scumread. I have been accused of tunneling plenty of times. It doesn’t bother me and I am not going to stop focusing on my top scumread.

I was vocal against the Warden lynch because I wasn’t prepared to lynch another power role claimer. I did that with Y2K and it was a disaster. Not going to vote for a PR claimer again.

Your case on me is very poor. If all you have is that I should be a lynched because I am a lurker (I disagree with that label and don’t think I am) and I voted like M13 (where I was alive one day) then it’s a poor case. Compare my voting in this game to my other games such as when I was the cop and got lynched day 1 by Ghug’s one sentence gut read. In that game I voted for one person (Wjessop) and held my vote on them throughout the day and didn’t even try to save myself despite being the only PR in the game.

It’s not a very good case, but I am fairly exhausted and just got off so I am not really in the mood to sit around and argue about how I voted in 7 (I think) other mafia games.

In case I die, most likely to be scum to least likely in my opinion;
Captainmeme/Ghug/Krellin
Guak
Reedeer1
ND
Goldy
BB

/\ Anyone want to guess who Vecna/Reeder o tonight?

Look at buddy Reeder.... Tucked right there in the middle. Lol. So obvious

Well in case I bite the bucket my top scum read is still Vecna (99%) on this one. Leaning scum on BB pending further thoughts. Although I could see Redeer/Meme fitting a lurker scum role. Nullish on Ghug-Guak. Town on Krellin/Goldy.

I want to point out that Vecna FULLY admits that lurking is scum behavior and yet has NO read on super lurker Reeder.

Lol. Can he be any more obvious and contradictory with himself. Sheesh

I think If I die that goldie is still my top scum read, but we'll see. If I die look over who has attacked me. they might not be mafia.

but enough people are attacking me that I doubt I will be killed.

I'm starting to doubt my reads on meme and guak, and ND is starting to feel more and more wrong. Probably want to lynch out of him and gold.

[Night is over, please hold]

Another day dawns, and another cannon shot is heard. After searching for bodies, the bloody corpse of GOLDFINGER0303 is discovered in the grass.

After examining his body, it is revealed that he was EFFIE TRINKET, the VANILLA TOWNIE.

Day Six has begun. You have 48 hours.

Cut, lurker Reeder. Well played that EON post. I like the way you and Vecna coordinate...

Makes this day much easier.

my death does not help town. if you are so sure of vecna kill him first and me second, if you still belive me mafia. now that my top scum read is dead, its time for me to rethink all my reads.