"Out of curiosity, I remember that back in the day we had GR for WTA, GR for ppsc, etc. so that you could specify the GR that was of interest to you. I am in no way complaining, but I am curious as to why that was stopped?"

The people who did GR were not mods (just helpful members) and they eventually faded away from the site. It took the team a decent amount of time to hunt down the code to create the rankings and some of it was lost/had to be recreated. The ability to make the separate ratings easily was lost in that process.

I believe that redoing the rankings is probably on the dev team's todo list but I would assume only after the game type situations have settled down.

Those are my best guesses anyways.

Thanks for the answer, jmo :-).

ATC said he doesn't plan on adding categories until he finishes his planned rework of the rating system. I'm sure it'll bring a whole fresh batch of arguments but I think he has some good ideas that he's working on.

#jmoformod

The mods need a PR department. which is sad. You guys do enough behind the scenes stuff, you need like one mod whos job it is to just announce and gadge user opinion. You could him the Press Secretary.

#jmoforpresssecretary

It is important when evaluating two options to do "A-B Testing" as much as possible. There is much data on webDip to compare WTA vs PPSC with respect to games started, finished, and the ratio of WTA to PPSC, and the number of users opting for each system.

In order to "A-B Test" the newest actual scoring system, SumOfSquares, vs the standard DrawSizeScoring, PPSC had to go away--temporarily. After some time has passed, the dev team will have new data to look at regarding games started, finished, and the ratio of SoS to DSS games, and number of users opting for each system.

For now, try it. You might like it.

@jmo "Holy shit dirge, would you stop being an asshat and approach this with some semblance of respect?"

That is definitely a tall order for me and goes against all my natural instincts. But, I'll give it my best try using "I-statements" my therapist taught me all about.

I feel _hurt_ that I logged on to webdip on Christmas day, only to see a major announcement that my favorite scoring variant, PPSC, has been removed from the site because professional F2F Diplomacy moguls don't respect it.

I feel betrayed when the webdip admins and mods mocked me when I inquired why PPSC couldn't be maintained as a non-default option.

I feel dismissed and ignored when I repeatedly asked how having PPSC as a non-default option cause problems for non-PPSC-players and no one has been willing to give me an answer.

Now I feel sad and mad and I don't know how to express myself except through a zero-sum-game perspective.

Dirge, I've re-read the posts, and I don't believe it's reasonable to say you were mocked by the team.

However, I do have the post from the moment you entered the thread:
------
"There was no real reason for completely removing PPSC/SWS scoring except one: the self-righteous assholeness level of it's opponents was greater than the willingness of its supporters to speak out.

Is it now a site requirement to have a 3 inch diameter or larger dowel permanently implanted in one's rectum in order to "be a part of the webdip team?"
---------

^ Presented without comment.

As has been said many many times in this thread, we're listening, we're counting the users who are upset by this change (and the users who are pleased/indifferent) and we're watching the site data.

This change is a *trial*. That means that we'll re-assess after there have been some games played without PPSC as an option, and determine whether the direction we're taking the site in was a success. And yes, we will *absolutely* revert it if the conclusion is that we made the wrong call.

I think this is probably the last time I'm going to post in this thread. As others have pointed out, the arguments are the same, and I find I'm writing the same posts over and over.

Thank you for your response, ATC. I have not been very nice and I have repeatedly resorted to non-respectful means to express myself. I am honestly surprised that you have bothered to reread my posts.

My original sentiment remains, and I believe I was absolutely correct in my reasons, but I could have and should have found better ways to express myself. With all due respect, doing a trial removal of PPSC seems like an intentionally provocative manner to assess interest in PPSC. I would recommend and suggest that you reconsider your methods.

I also have to express respect for your level of patience even if the anger directed at you is a result of your own actions.

Thanks for the apology, dirge. it is much appreciated.

We're not intending to intentionally be provocative. And if we ever do get moderators who try to provoke the site membership for sport (or whatever), I hope they are asked to leave the team.

I think something which isn't really clear is how much the team care. We're here to make the best site we can, and we want it to be the nicest environment for users possible. Zultar and I spoke for around 30 minutes this morning *alone* about PPSC and the complaints we've received. I want to be clear that the people who are happy about the change still vastly outnumber the people who have complained - but that's not really the point. Even if a vote would agree with me, I still don't think voting is the right way to make decisions for webdiplomacy.

I've been thinking about how we can fit the goals of the site with respect to widely accepted scoring systems and well-known systems for competitive play, but still satisfy the people who learnt to play on PPSC and want to continue to play it. Maybe there's a solution in there.

I'm a little surprised there haven't been unranked games set up for the PPSC players to continue to get a game in, even if they're not scored by points (which everyone seems to say they don't care about anyway). I'm interested in why that is.

However, I'm going to step out of the thread for a while. I'll be back in a week or three with some updates. We'll publish the relevant site data at that point, too.

We're still reachable at [email protected], if anyone has (constructive) suggestions to make that haven't yet appeared in this thread. And, you're welcome to continue to post here - especially if there's anything new to add.

Because PPSC players are less hardcore than WTA fans and so they are more likely to care about points?

Points are status for people who don't care that they're useless for *competitive* status. People who care about competitive status care about GR (or claim even GR isn't that useful, depending). Point is, having something at stake is frequently desirable even if you don't care about the sort of competition GR is supposed to measure.

You just made the point I was trying to make, thanks.

I feel that removing a game mode for the purpose of running a trial for a new game mode is a good way of alienating players no matter the actual purpose of the trial.

I don't see the necessity of having to remove ppsc. I've only tried it once I believe, but if there are enough people that are actually playing those games then why remove it?

I'm really grateful for all the work the mods are putting into this, however I don't believe they made the right decision to cut out ppsc randomly while there was still a following for it. Minority or not.

Personally I rarely play PPSC but the fact that the loud members are against PPSC doesn't mean everyone hates it and wants it to disappear.

"
I'm a little surprised there haven't been unranked games set up for the PPSC players to continue to get a game in, even if they're not scored by points (which everyone seems to say they don't care about anyway). I'm interested in why that is."

I am really at a loss to understand why anyone who wants to play PPSC would set up an unranked game to play "PPSC". An unranked game is an unranked game, not PPSC. Unranked games are cool, I like that they now exist, but I really really cannot see any logic that connects the two.

I'm always going to think PPSC are hokey games but the more i think about it the more I like keeping them around. There's casual players out there and i kinda like that they've got an outlet to enjoy so they don't all trickle into the competitive games, it's nice to have that division based on degree of interest. Poker tables vs slot machines if you will.

Unranked games don't really fill that need, casual players just enjoy the 'WebDip' points too much. To further leverage the cards analogy, casual pokers is still more fun if you're playing with worthless poker chips as a measure of success, otherwise why ever fold or why even stick the game out if you start losing? Something to play for and something to lose is a pretty integral component of the game and it has to be a range.

"We're not intending to intentionally be provocative. "

We believe you. Your integrity is not under suspicion.

"I think something which isn't really clear is how much the team care. We're here to make the best site we can, and we want it to be the nicest environment for users possible. Zultar and I spoke for around 30 minutes this morning *alone* about PPSC and the complaints we've received."

Thank you.

"I want to be clear that the people who are happy about the change still vastly outnumber the people who have complained"

But they didn't really play PPSC. Their opposition to it is moral rather than practical. They're simply racist.

"- but that's not really the point. "

Then please don't bring it up. They're not exactly articulate or helpful. I was reduced to making fun of their scores to get them to stay out of it. You're the sole person whom holds their point of view who happens to be articulating your position appreciably.

"Even if a vote would agree with me, I still don't think voting is the right way to make decisions for webdiplomacy."

I'd agree. 'Least objection' probably trumps democracy.

"We'll publish the relevant site data at that point, too."

The data won't be especially meaningful to us. Data saying that broccoli is more fun than chocolate ice cream probably won't be well received here. We're not asking for data, we're asking for PPSC back.

I've made my views on ppsc clear, I like it.
However, I'm prepared to be patient and I'm trying out SoS scoring.
But SoS is still a form of wta
Maybe an option would be SoS (wta) and a form of SoS that applied in wins and draws

Al Swearengen: "But they didn't really play PPSC. Their opposition to it is moral rather than practical. They're simply racist."

This is simply not true. When I create/join new games, they are exclusively WTA/DSS. When I took over positions, they were usually WTA but some were PPSC if the position was strong enough. In my experience, the PPSC games were less enjoyable to play, even from a strong joined position.

The less enjoyable aspect is because those in PPSC games are not competing for the win--they are competing for points instead. This skewed priority has been belabored over and over again. I would never take over weaker positions in PPSC games because they are hopeless since established powers are already on their way to victory--precisely why the position was abandoned!

The second reason I dislike PPSC is because of the spillover effect. PPSC and WTA are vastly different games with different incentives, strategies and tactics to achieve a victory condition. I think that bifurcates the user base which isn't really a good thing. I also think that there are some out there who tout PPSC as "newbie friendly". This encourages bad habits and should be avoided at all costs.

I don't want new players coddled by *the lesser game of PPSC* (yes, I said it) and come to believe that it is easy to "win". I want to face opponents who have faced trial by fire in *a real game of WTA/DSS Diplomacy* (yes, I said that too) who end up stronger as a result.

This is why unranked games are such a good idea. It allows anyone to play a fun or educational game (a nod to the teachers out there) without making it competitive. A learning environment doesn't need to be cutthroat. Thus, unranked games with nothing at stake.

I think this will be my last post on the subject as well. I hope that PPSC-exclusive players brave the shark-infested waters of WTA/DSS and see how fun Diplomacy can be.

"I didn't have fun so obviously it can't be fun for anyone" and "I think DSS is more competitive and I think everyone on the site must play competitively" are not legitimate reasons to get rid of ppsc.

You are also exaggerating the "bad play" aspect. It's simply different, and if a ppsc player wishes to play WTA I'm sure that he or she can adapt as I did in my one ppsc game.

I definitely agree that there's probably a small minority speaking out against ppsc but they seem the loudest. Most of us are very neutral on the topic and don't speak out, but who gives a fuck as long as there are people using this function don't deprive them of it. Also, SoS is *no* replacement for ppsc, I would argue it might be worse.

I am chiming in again. I am one of neutral types. I simply think PPSC should stay for those who enjoy it. If we want to make the site the best place for classic diplomacy the first place change should've happened is by removing the variant maps. replacing them with classic variations (Build anywhere, milan, fleet rome, ect) to me it seems unnessecary to remove PPSC. scoring systems in general are not "classic"; the avalon hill rulebook speaks about 0 scoring systems. Just saying we can be the est place to play classic diplomacy without removing PPSC. I am honestly starting to think this change is far more headache than it is worth.

The first ever SoS game has concluded in a 5 way draw where everyone except the leading player lost points.
gameID=171506 for reference

This left me a bad taste in the mouth, this is nowhere close to PPSC.

I think I will be sticking to WTA from now on.

Well besides the fact that SoS was made for Full Press games, it did exactly what it was supposed to do.

SoS rewards
1) having centers
2) your opposition being fragmented

if you don't understand or don't want that, don't play SoS.
If you are unhappy with your outcome
a) play better
and/or
b) don't press draw

I'm not advocating for the removal of SoS. I am just stating that this is definitely not a substitute for PPSC and is a completely different scoring system. It is also not a game mode I would play again.