And only the pro-lifers who would block the clinics are as you describe. There are many of us pro-life folks whoi don't believe in extremist tactics and believ in changing the system from within. Oh, and thug is a racial slur, just so you are aware.

Sorry, I fight fire with fire. What I said was nothing compared to the kind of rhetoric that is common place among the anti-abortion crowd.

@ Mafia, the quotes from the literature do indeed establish that consequent on abortion live birth happens on occasion. This is highly significant as several posters here have previously aggressively decried this now proven fact.
Now either the posters denying this fact unthinkingly came out with is the accepted pro-choice narrative or they deliberately misled. What is to be?

Just to make it clear I have never demonstrated outside an abortion clinic. Now moving on.............

No. You were saying that live births happen during abortions as a matter of course ie. something that happens all the time, by design. I never denied that medical procedures don't go wrong, what I was arguing against was the notion that doctors were intentionally delivering live babies and then killing them, which, if you look back is what you said happened. Now you've found evidence to support the notion that live babies are sometimes accidentally born instead of an abortion taking place, and you're trying to say "this is what I was saying all along". Now either I misinterpreted you from the start, in which case I apologize, or you're being dishonest now, in claiming that you were always talking about accidental live births rather than intentional ones.

On the golden mean from his point of view Mafia is actually correct. His previously stated position is that he supports a woman's right to choose at term minus1 week. There is no compromising with such a logically consistent, but in my view wrong, stance.

"''In the literature describing induction termination, there have been multiple case reports of unintended live births [47], [52], [54] and [59].''

Must I keep going or is this point now accepted?"

Do you have any details of these case reports and what happened or are we to dig it up ourselves? There is no link.

You earlier cited a wholly discredited anti-Asian/anti-black bigot and serial liar as your star witness, and have insinuating that this "live birth" not only happens but happens often and results in babies born are put to death.

Ironic that Fulham is complaining about people misleading others, while pulling this kind of tactic of making a bombastic and slanderous accusation, only to pretend he said something much less extreme.

"Just to make it clear I have never demonstrated outside an abortion clinic. Now moving on............."

Do you support those laws? Aren't those laws the logical extension of your women-as-livestock position on reproduction and belief that a 12 week old fetus is equivalent to a fully developed born and living human being?

Well of course I was talking about accidents. You will find no comments from me about the integrity of the medical profession (apart from that guy in Phili). So yes you are wrong and yes, of course, I accept your apology. Thank you for offering it.

What I have found out is that live birth was appreciated in medical circles as a complication and as a result the foeticide procedures briefly described in my citations were instigated. A significant complication remains, however, and that is that labour may be induced in the period between taking the hormone and the foeticide procedure being carried out (reference supplied if needed). What one thinks of foeticide, which is rarely spoken about outside of the scientific literature certainly by the pro-choice constituency, is of course another matter.

On the subject of documentaries we have had quite a few ''intrusive'' ones in the UK on the labour suite, they leave little to the imagination and I am sure that they are very helpful for perspective mothers and even, to a lesser extent, fathers.

"Oh, and thug is a racial slur, just so you are aware. "

Thug is not a racial slur. Just so you are aware. It would be like saying "Assassin" is a racial slur.

So you rescind your earlier endorsement of claims that doctors kill live born babies?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0968808008313718
Second Trimester Medical Abortion with Mifepristone–Misoprostol and Misoprostol Alone: A Review of Methods and Management
Reproductive Health Matters
Volume 16, Issue 31, Supplement, May 2008, Pages 162-172

Have a nice day.

Amazing that someone who respects the medical profession would trot out Stanek as a credible source in an abortion debate.

What the hell am I supposed to do with that? Your citation about feticide inducement had no details about the cases and had four footnotes requiring investigation into hard to find journals.

On what page is there any discussion about the actual case reports?

At that clinic in Phili live babies were killed by suffocation. Not sure what happened to the live births described in this paper from the literature -
''In the literature describing induction termination, there have been multiple case reports of unintended live births [47], [52], [54] and [59].''
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0968808008313718
Second Trimester Medical Abortion with Mifepristone–Misoprostol and Misoprostol Alone: A Review of Methods and Management
Reproductive Health Matters
Volume 16, Issue 31, Supplement, May 2008, Pages 162-172

Look them up if you like and please let me know the results. Not sure what you would find though, there seem to be 3 alternatives -
1) neglected left to die, 2) murdered, 3) medically supported and given the start in life of being brought into the world as aborted foetus'.
My guess is that most would fall into the first group, but it is only a guess.

Look it up on science direct, you will find it there. I am sure that your college subscribes.

"http://www.nydailynews.com/news/doctor-loses-license-live-birth-abortion-article-1.392630"

Oh btw, in this case which is your only documented case anybody can see, the doctor wasn't present. Part of the reason he lost his medical license was that he delegated tasks to unlicensed medical personnel. And you want to treat this like its an epidemic.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-02-06/us/florida.abortion_1_sycloria-williams-clinic-baby?_s=PM:US

Btw, the woman only found out about her pregnancy after falling and then going to the doctor to get treatment. But according to you that's not good enough, since she'd have to have this accidental fall before 12 weeks.

The Florida case wasn't even a late-term abortion, it was in the 2nd trimester.

@ fulhamish - In that case, that explains our miscommunications. Yes, medical procedures go wrong from time to time, and you'll note I already explicitly modified my stance on abortion so as to include a stance on this rare complication. Arguments with you tend to do that; force people to consider strange and unusual circumstances as though they were commonplace and everyday. Things like "I agree with the eating of sandwiches, except in the case that you are eating a sandwich near an angry badger which may get hungry and attack you or other innocent bystanders."
What you are objecting to here is the killing of infants brought about accidentally by complications in abortion procedures. You're not objecting to abortions themselves. That's all well and good to do so. That is a separate, though related issue. It also doesn't explain your "no abortions past 12 weeks" stance. It's not as though there's any risk of a fetus being born alive at 13 weeks.

Interesting to note, on your BMJ report, this fact:

"Pennsylvania law already requires that a woman be counselled about alternatives to abortion and to wait 24 hours before the procedure. Most Pennsylvania clinics will not provide abortions after 20 weeks, and abortion after 24 weeks is prohibited. Dr Gosnell’s clinic was reported to have violated those rules."

So are we to expect if the anti-choice crowd gets their way we'll have more unregulated clinics such as these? PA doesn't even allow late-term abortions of any kind. Evidently the problem isn't legal abortion is it?

Well I was not aware of the Florida case, thank you for bringing it to my attention. I was actually talking about this one
http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2011/01/19/philly-doctor-facing-8-counts-of-murder/

I did originally provide a reference for it from the scientific lit, but perhaps this one is a bit easier for some to read.

Note, Fulham supposedly isn't slandering the medical profession but he is using a unregulated/illegal clinic in bad condition & a case where a doctor wasn't even present to paint abortion as some kind of murderous, anything goes, gleeful baby killing business.

"Well I was not aware of the Florida case, thank you for bringing it to my attention. I was actually talking about this one"

You provided the link! Do you not even read your own links?

But you're talking about someone who was violating medical ethics, and performing unsafe medical procedures as though this is what all pro choice people want to happen.

For the record, I am in favour of doctors performing abortions safely, legally and dealing with any complications in an appropriate way. I'm not just, all for whatever any doctor wants to do so long as it's called "abortion". I'm not including this modification in my stance on abortion though, and the fact that if you do an abortion wrong it can result in a live birth, still doesn't actually account for the 12 weeks stance.

"My guess is that most would fall into the first group, but it is only a guess."

Of course you would assume that, because you're not maligning the medical community at all by accusing them of breaking the law by not providing care to live born babies. And you think nothing of a professional journal non-chalantly reporting criminal activity like that.

I guess this is the sort of mendacity we should be used to by now.

"''In the literature describing induction termination, there have been multiple case reports of unintended live births [47], [52], [54] and [59].''
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0968808008313718
Second Trimester Medical Abortion with Mifepristone–Misoprostol and Misoprostol Alone: A Review of Methods and Management
Reproductive Health Matters
Volume 16, Issue 31, Supplement, May 2008, Pages 162-172

Look them up if you like and please let me know the results. Not sure what you would find "

I'm not surprised you make allegations without even bothering to know the details of the cases.

The four footnotes citing live births don't even come from the link you provided. I guess this is your MO, provide people confusing links and because they're from professional journals the people who don't bother to check will be convinced you're not being dishonest here.

The four footnotes come from these sources:

Bhide A, et al. Comparison of feticide carried out by cordocentesis
versus cardiac puncture. Ultrasound Obstet Gynecol 2002;20:230–2
[Evidence Grade: III].
[48] Eddleman KA, et al. Select

Gill P, et al. Induction of fetal demise in advanced pregnancy
terminations: report on a funic potassium chloride protocol. Fetal
Diagn Ther 1994;9:278–82 [Evidence Grade: III].

Isada NB, et al. Fetal intracardiac potassium chloride injection to
avoid the hopeless resuscitation of an abnormal abortus: I. Clinical
issues. Obstet Gynecol 1992;80:296–9 [Evidence Grade: III].

] Silva LV, et al. Feticide does not modify duration of labor induction
in cases of medical termination of pregnancy. Fetal Diagn Ther
2008;23:192–7 [Evidence Grade: III]

@ Mafia, let's agree to take 21 weeks as the current viable limit, although this is dropping all the time. So I would strongly defend the lowering of the limit to 21 weeks, perhaps 20 weeks for a margin of error. My stated preference of 12 weeks is based on the sentience arguments we went through earlier. Granted that this is not an exact science as yet, but I feel that this is a good a figure as any, given the ever lowering of the figures. Of course, as you will appreciate, I am not a natural supporter of abortion, but I have found that some of the arguments put forward by the pro-choice lobby (particularly on rape) have changed my views. Given that, I believe, over 90 % of abortions are performed at pre-12 weeks, this does not seem particularly draconian.
An interesting figure I have uncovered is that currently in the USA the birth/abortion ratio is around 2. I was thoroughly gobsmacked when I read this. I hope that we can both agree that it is absolutely shocking.
I also hope you appreciate that I have tried to be absolutely open and honest in my reply.