but you never read into personality

Do you really think we ought to take the testimonies of gusano terrorists who openly when it comes to Cuba? How about the Iranian monarchists and MEK who hang around western countries spouting off stuff about Iran? Are they trustworthy? Are the Chechen terrorists and anti-Putin oligarchs who fund them that like to hang out in the UK trustworthy when it comes to Russia?

You're never going to see objective reports coming from exiles. The INC scenario is not dis-analogous, it is typical. Exiles always exaggerate the horrors they face in order to get sympathy, asylum status and even support to launch an attack on the government they fled.

except if they have something awful to say about the western backed government. Then hang on their every word.

Seeing Santa's quote ""since you all seem to know so much about me without having ever met me and it sure seems more entertaining for you than actually defending your positions. "

Please, Putty, tell us about yourself.

And actually I haven't *had* any position during this thread. Any time an autocrat dies there is the possibility of a power struggle, and in a nation with nukes that can be Bad. Equally obviously, no one is going to go out of their way to try to screw with things. So what happens is pretty much up to the North Koreans, and not my problem.

Actually I have a deadly weapon against capitalism.

"but you never read into personality"

That's what counts reading into your personality? Holy christ. I didn't even say you weren't really a liberal. I was pointing out it is typical of liberals to heap abuse on and betray leftists (and even allying with rightwingers in the process), which is clear for anybody who has bothered to read the lyrics of the song "Love me, love me I'm a liberal".

How that is reading into your personality is beyond me, it wasn't even a personal attack. It surely wasn't a commentary about how you're a rich, lazy spoiled teenager who hasn't experienced the world as much as mature clear-headed folk like Stratagos & co. Nor a commentary about your various pathologies and psychoses.

Really piss poor example if there ever was one.

"except if they have something awful to say about the western backed government. Then hang on their every word."

If exiles have something bad to say about a western backed government they're deemed "state sponsors of terror", their assets are seized, and they quickly find themselves under siege.

"And actually I haven't *had* any position during this thread"

Or any other thread. Your sole "contribution" to anything has been to inject yourself randomly in discussions to declare over and over again how awesome you are for (pretending to) muting me, and make lame jokes.

The point is, we're all participating in this system of capitalism. If we wanna destroy, or change it, we'll have to stop consuming. That's the key. The first thing we'll have to stop consuming is oil. In other words, we all have to start taking trains and buying bicycles. We also need to stop buying luxury products such as televisions and stuff. I have a tv but I'm not connected to the TV network.
That's the only protest against capitalism that will ever work.

No, it's not going to work. Not participating scares nobody.

Hahaha. Just you wait and see... I am sabotaging the system more than you are Putin. You're just giving the right wing self assurance "haha look at this guy: he's defending North Korea's leadership". You're only advancing the cause of capitalism, while I'm destroying it
:-)

well then i apologize i never have even heard of that song

When did he die? How? And most importantly who the flip cares!

but I don't apologize for thinking that NK is an oppressive regime. I don't see how on one hand you can praise Vietnam and China as being shining examples of prosperous communist nations (not capitalist, or former communist, as you have argued several times) because they were able to adjust to the world at large and at the same time claim that North Korea has no choice but to remain an international pariah state. If Vietnam, and China is able to do it why not NK, both have enemies who did not want them to succeed both went through taxing wars and destructive international and internal politics, but the two that sought to engage the world rather than shut it out are succeeding while NK starves, if there isn't any other reason to seperate the Kim regime as an oppressive government, even if you don't see other leftist anti imperial states as oppressive, that would be it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLqKXrlD1TU

You're destroying it, yeah, by talking about the awesomeness of the free market. You rebel, you.

Whoever said anything about the free market? The free market is awesome. It's capitalism that sucks. It's that which I'm destroying.

Non-participation in capitalism is not only wholly ineffective, but in America it's not even possible.

Non-participation in capitalism is possible everywhere. It's very difficult, but it can be done. I do it every day. I am going to eat now, see you later.

Ok enjoy you're food. You grew/raised it yourself I'm assuming?

with his hand cranked laptop and internet connection that he built from scratch.

DPRK has not been allowed to adjust, Santa. You cannot compare these cases because they do not experience the same conditions.

China was long ago brought into the western orbit, in the 1970s. China was effectively a US ally for the last two decades of the Cold War. DPRK has always had an American blockade on it. China has never felt the kind of military pressure that DPRK now faces. (Colin Powell threatened to turn DPRK into a "charcoal briquette") The US and RoK haven't even signed peace treaties with the DPRK. There are tens of thousands of troops along the DPRK border. In addition, as soon as the USSR collapsed, the Americans retargeted their nukes on DPRK, which is why DPRK decided to initiate a nuclear program of its own. DPRK quickly stopped its program when the Americans signed a bogus deal in which they would lie about providing light water nuclear reactors in exchange for an end to hostilities, normalized relations, and an end to sanctions - none of which happened. The US normalized relations with China in the 1970s. The US still has not normalized relations with the DPRK. The US stopped blocking Chinese UN membership in the 1970s. The DPRK wasn't allowed into the UN until the late 1980s. The DPRK's agricultural situation has always made it uniquely dependent on outside sources for materials needed for ag production. China has bountiful arable land and resources. Vietnam is the rice bowl of the world.

Nonetheless DPRK has reached out, trying to engage in trade relations with Japan, ROK and others. They have tried to set up SEZs, much like China. DPRK desperately wants to be a normalized country. It has pleaded over and over again for normal relations with America. Why would a hostile, intransigent country bent on confrontation make this a demand?

You just can't compare these situations. DPRK is more akin to Cuba, but even in that case not really because Cuba started out much richer to begin with, and there is no continuous threat of nuclear attack and armed invasion to Cuba.

The ARPANET should be free! Or something

But every other set of conditions has worked moderately well at least. You have Cuba who is isolated by the US but sees partnerships with other nations. You have Vietnam which fought a bloody war with the US and was Soviet backed during the cold war. You have china which you discussed at length. why would the U.S. single out North Korea? What exactly is the threat that NK provides that China or Vietnam do not?

"What exactly is the threat that NK provides that China or Vietnam do not? "

An insane lunatic at the helm with access to nuclear weapons? ;-)

When did we start talking about France?

/rimshot

@Sic: no, but soon I will be growing my own food also =)

Thats good. I am really into self sufficiency and sustainability, maybe we could swap ideas sometime. Most of the stuff I know on my end has to do with plants. Permaculture, feeding cycles into each other, minimizing energy waste. Have some pretty cool ideas for living structures.

Oh I didnt even remember my point. I was going to say I spent years trying everything to avoid participation in capitalism. And after living homeless without a penny to my name, and living in an anarchist commune for several years after that, I am telling you, the ONLY way to avoid any participation in capitalism is if capitalism collapses, ceases to exist.