This is such a sad world I live in that one little, remote, backwater beats an Empire that stood for a millennia.

I'll come up with a simple list of achievements which will prove that the Byzantine Empire is better later. I'll make it simple for the Athens voters.

Before you say anything, ND, I have studied the Byzantines, and as you have seen I have great respect for them.

also, did you know that during the Roman Era, people from all over the known world went to study to Rome, and the Romans sent their intellectuals to study at this "little remote backwater"

Also, Athenian slaves were the people the Romans wanted teaching their kids.

and this "little, remote backwater" created the philosophy that is the foundation of Christian theology, and Western thinking.

Discovering the works of Athenian philosophers sparked the Islamic Golden Age and contributed to the Renaissance in Europe.

I'm not exactly sure you guys are understanding what I saying: All Western thinking stems from Aristotle, Socrates and Plato. Democracy, American individualism and humanism, Western theology..

I'm not exactly sure how it is possible to be more influential, short of ruling the world, but even then...

The politics of Western Civilization is far more related to the Roman Republic, which developed its politics independently of Athens, than it is to Athenian democracy. But humanism really is one of the biggest things to hit the world, considering it was a major deal in beginning two of the world's biggest movements of science, art, and theology, and it wasn't even specific to the Western world.

also, before you bring this point up ND: I agree Athens never had much of an empire, but, fortunately that is not the only criteria for this tournament.

Well I will have my thoughts/list shortly but Athens is a essentially at it's core a little, remote, backwater. It pales in comparison to the great Byzantine Empire.

their achievements lay not in military conquests or oppressive domination, but in social works and innovations that influenced the world much longer than any conquest has

Those philosophical achievements do not outmatch the achievements of the Byzantine Empire though.

How do they not? What achievement of the Byzantines matches the impact of humanism?

I mean, the real Romans may stand a chance, but I'll save that argument for if there's a Athens v Rome match.

ND, please describe your criteria of what makes an civilization "great" for the purposes of this contest.

As for myself, I'm going to go back to my traditional 6 point scoring

1) Territorial conquest/political sway: Byzantines

I have a bit of a hard time giving this to the Byzantines, frankly, as they never conquered much. Most of their existence was spent defending the borders that they inherited from the Roman empire, outside of Justinian's forays into the Vandal kingdoms and Italy. Athens, meanwhile, started as just a small city-state and via its navy grew a trade/colonial empire that encompassed dozens of other city states under its sway. Make no mistake - without Athens, Greece would have fallen to the Persians.

But, as with anything, money talks. And the Byzantines had lots of money, which they used to bribe away barbarian tribes as well as buy allies in times of war. So while they didn't quite conquer anything, this political influence I will grudgingly say weighs more than that of Athens - though not by much.

2) Artistic achievements: Athens

There should be no contest with this. Athenian art and architecture was the pinnacle of art in the West until the Renaissance. Yes, the Byzantines built the Hagia Sophia and many other churches. But the Athenians built many beautiful temples and great sculptures and reliefs. This may be skewed since realistic depiction of the human form had gone out of fashion in medieval times (which is what the Byzantines are - a medieval civilization), but time also weighs in Athens' favor. Even if the Byzantines and Athens completed duplicate works, the with would go to Athens since they did it a thousand years before the Byzantines. Kinda like how artists today could recreate Michelangelo's David, but who fuckin cares?

3) Scientific achievements: Athens

Granted, I don't know all that much about Byzantine scientific achievements aside from Greek fire (which is a marvel). However, Athenian scientists laid down the foundation for so many modern fields of science: Engineering (Archimedes), Medicine (Hypocrates), Physics/Astronomy (Aristotle). Today's achievements stand on the shoulders of giants, and those giants were Athenian. Safekeeping those achievements is not on the same level as achieving them in the first place.

4) Size/longevity: Byzantines

Here ya go ND. This is the Byzantine's unquestionable win category.

5) Lasting impact on the world: Draw

So, I'm going to call this a draw. Athens represents the foundation of modern thought. Art, science, philosophy: it all starts with Athens. The Romans studied the Athenians and replicated what they could. Later on Renaissance and Enlightenment thinkers went back to these classical works. The butterfly effect is huge.

On the other hand, the only reason why these later writers had access to these works are because of the Byzantines (Well, to be correct its actually due to the Venetians plundering Constantinople at the end of the fourth crusade and bringing back lots of ancient works). By the mere fact of existing, the Byzantines kept most of Europe Christian, created the schism between Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity, as well as had a great and lasting impact on the world via Russia (who once Constantinople fell, felt that they were the next continuation of the Roman Empire).

These are not trivial things on either side, and I cannot assign a greater value to either one.

6) Notable historic figures: Athens

This is where Athens takes the lead again. I can name three people from the Byzantine Empire. Justinian, Theodora and Belisarius. I sorta know Basil and Heraclius. But besides Justinian and Belisarius, those were just some pretty decent rulers who were able to right the ever-sinking ship of the Byzantines. A good emperor, yes. But history does not deem that enough to be considered a Great Person.

The Athenians meanwhile have Pericles, Aristotle, Thucydides, Socrates, Plato, Sophocles, Eurypides, Aristophanes, Aesop, Archimedes, Euclid, Pythagoras, Hippocrates, Demosthenes, and on and on (well, actually that's most of them). These men did so much to impact their particular field of work that they are greater still known today, almost 2500 years after their death. These are the men who are Great Writers and Great Scientists in Civilization V lol.

End result: 3-2-1 in favor of Athens. ##VOTE Athens

lol this is funny. I'll try to respond to it tonight.

Unfortunately responding to this and making my own argument will take too long and I don't have a lot of time. So, I'll respond in the morning.

Well, when you do get to it, I would be interested in what your background is that makes you such an advocate for the Byzantines. I took a course each on them and early Russia, as well as two Art History courses that covered many Byzantine pieces. So, I'm not completely illiterate in the matter of this comparison.

Current: ATH 3 v BYZ 1

##Vote Byzantines

Can't compare a city-state that got wrecked by the Spartans, Macedonians, and more to the very people who conquered them eventually and lasted a thousand years longer.

I've been going through this by voting based on the impact they had on the world they existed in, not the impact they had on our modern world.

Hellenization, which paved the way for the Roman empire, the Jewish diaspora and therefore the spread of Christianity, was basically a spread of Athenian ideas and culture.

Chaqa, how can you say they got wrecked by Sparta? The Peloponnesian Wars took something like thirty years.

Athens, for a very long time, was the biggest badass in their area. Plus, the Byzantines never conquered Greece - the Romans did.

The Byzantines ARE the Romans.

They aren't some other people. They're Romans.

The Byzantine Empire was the last, failing remnants of a once great Roman Empire. Yes, it lasted for an exceedingly long amount of time, but near the end the territory that it controlled was just Byzantium. Athens was embroiled in wars with Sparta and other places but it was innovative. Athens has made a mark on history and the Byzantine Empire hasn't. Athens wins hands down.

Chaqa - for the purposes of this contest, the Byzantines and Romans are treated as separate entities. Otherwise, what will you do when the finals are Romans vs Byzantines? Who will you give credit to conquering Greece then?