(No reason to keep PPSC that's related to classic games, anyway. Forgot to amend myself when it comes to variants, but Kremmen's comment reminded me.)

@ Lethologica: I think you do. I don't know the studies that you're referring to, but I agree that whether or not you play with the best scoring system doesn't make that much of a difference as a new player - as long as you enjoy playing Diplomacy.

However, I do think players tend to stick to what they know, and if you start out playing PPSC (because it seemed fairer than WTA and less complicated than SoS), you'll be inclined to keep playing it, even if you might enjoy WTA/SoS more.

I like my Sennheiser/Beats analogy. Sennheiser has much better sound quality headphones (at least compared to the original Beats by Dre), but because Beats had much better marketing/visual design they became popular and now dominate the headphones market.

@A Tin Can

Your responses here are appreciated, Sir. Certainly you have worked tirelessly to facilitate discussion here, have diligently moderated games and have gone far to make sure that what you write, you write modestly and plainly. In my opinion you are chiefest of the remaining staff, following the exodus.

Unfortunately whomever made the decision to remove our cherished PPSC did so in error, if not in outright malice.

Can you please address this, and expediently? I look forward to the return of the PPSC so that I resume trolling instagram and what have you, and so this matter may be put forever behind us.

I am counting on you in this regard and feel sure that you shall not fail me, as surely as you have proved reliable in the past.

Yours in the Faith,
Al Swearengen

I would like to point out that Tin Can and his stooges have still failed to provide even a single reason why allowing people to play PPSC on this site has any negative impact on the site or on anti-PPSC jihadists.

@dirge,Why do you feel they need to explain themselves? What do they owe you? Or me? It's a free site and this is the direction they want to go. It doesn't change if you can play the game or not.

Because its bullshit when Tin Hitler unilaterally and passive aggressively renames and then eliminates a scoring variant that this site was built on and many of the long term players have enjoyed for years. And who the fuck are you, anyway?

@ssorenn, "it's a free site" is the sort of dirty rhetorical trick that Chumbles was complaining about. Though I can sort of understand the sentiment that dirge fired first, what with "Tin Hitler" and "jihadists" and "stooges" and whatnot.

@dirge, how about you lead by example. I asked you to explain how SoS incentivizes early draws more than PPSC does, and you haven't responded.

In PPSC and WTA, people who expect to risk elimination are incentivized to draw, and people who expect to survive or threaten solos are incentivized to keep playing--with the differentiation that a solo counts as eliminating everyone else in WTA, which slightly increases the risk side of the risk/reward calculation. But in both modes, the risk-averse player will draw as soon as one player is eliminated, for certain profit.

In SoS, people who expect to lose SCs are incentivized to draw, and people who expect to lose SCs are incentivized to keep playing. However, critically, there is no early situation where all surviving players have certain profit over the starting game state.

Dirge, if you want to sling shit, you know im more than willing, fucktard. So control yourself. i merely asked a legitimate question.

@leth, it is a free site,its not rhetoric, Kestas,Zultar,ATC, and the mods can do what they like and owe you nothing

BTW, PPSC is for pussies

@leth, for a guy who joined this site in October of 2015, you seem quite well versed in everything that goes on here....what do you do for a living, live here?

@Leth: I think dirge was quite a bit more graphic when he first joined the thread, though I agree that his current tone is still unnecessary.

dirge: I'm sorry you're not satisfied with our (repeated!) explanations above. I really am.

The parts of your criticism where you're not abusing me/us have been noted, and we'll take it into consideration when we evaluate whether or not the change has been successful.

@ssorenn, "it's a free site" is neither an argument that one scoring system is better than another, nor an argument that keeping a scoring system would be good or bad or neutral for the site. It's abandoning the premise that anyone, and in particular the mods and site owners, has a reason to be interested in either of the above points. It's attempting to set fire to the conversation before dirge's argument (however nastily expressed) can carry the day. Of course the site owners can shut down the site tonight if they want, but as long as 'making this site a good place to play Diplomacy online' remains a fundamental interest (which appears to be the case), the above two points merit discussion no matter who's paying for what.

"as long as 'making this site a good place to play Diplomacy online' remains a fundamental interest"

We're aiming to make the site the *best* place to play Diplomacy online. This is why we removed PPSC - to be replaced with two systems that cover the same needs, yet are well known, understood, and accepted in the wider Diplomacy community.

"'making this site a good place to play Diplomacy online' "

that up to the powers that be, to decide how they feel it should be. the best part of this whole dialogue is that the powers that be said this is a trial. they are waiting for data, and unfortunately have not pronounced PPSC dead(which it should be) did i not tell you, its for pussies

Ninja'd errrrrrrrrrrrr

Things need to calm down in this thread. Comparing other users (and yes, ATC and all of the moderators and admins ARE users too) to Hitler is not acceptable, and if it continues then punishments will be handed out. Such harassment is not tolerated. Please make your arguments calmly and respectfully like the adults we all are.

- Hellenic Riot (webDiplomacy Administrator)

And speaking of empty rhetoric...yeah, come after me personally, ssorenn, I'm sure *that's* useful.

what did i say that personal? that you may live here? if you think that may be the meaning of my post, well oops

Given my current understanding, ATC, I agree that's the best course in theory. What I don't know, that you and the other mods are in a better position to know, is the practical effect on the playerbase. That's the only way the PPSC change could affect me one way or the other anyway, since I wasn't planning to play any PPSC games. :)

"This is why we removed PPSC - to be replaced with two systems that cover the same needs, yet are well known, understood, and accepted in the wider Diplomacy community."

Uh, no. They clearly don't cover the same needs. They're not PPSC, which obviously a small but vocal chunk of players rather enjoy, and they clearly don't have the same motivational outcomes in terms of points outcomes, or we wouldn't be arguing about this at all.

The rest of the statement, "This is why we removed PPSC - to be replaced with two systems that are well known, understood, and accepted in the wider Diplomacy community." is perfectly accurate though.

I don't know anything about SOS since i haven't used it yet, but I personally don't see much loss in dumping the PPSC scoring. Yeah sure some people like getting their "participant" ribbon for playing but it's hardly necessary to dumb down of the game for new players, WTA is not really rocket science to pick up and players are going to get the concept quick enough.

Other sites survive have proven the concept well enough that beginners seem to be able to handle the advanced mathematics of a WTA only scoring system and retention doesn't seem to be much of an issue when players discover they don't get rewarded for losing less the other people lose. The entire idea of it is borderline patronizing for a game intended for grown-ups.

And i get that it's fashionable here to bag on the mods, but "Hitler"? Seriously guys, that's just being douchey and instantly makes everybody just roll their eyes and immediately ignore your argument since we just assume you're just childishly looking for attention when you do that.

"Seriously guys, that's just being douchey and instantly makes everybody just roll their eyes and immediately ignore your argument since we just assume you're just childishly looking for attention when you do that."

Which they are.

@ssorenn
I live here, and Lethologica is an unfortunate recipient of my friendship, so there's some transitive property here.

@VI If you scroll through this whole thread, I think you may find a total of zero people campaigning for PPSC to be the newbie option. That's a straight up straw man argument, as is the argument that PPSC is the "dumb" option.

It's just a points distribution scheme which behaves differently to the ones you like.

I seriously don't get why people are so heated up that they have to denigrate and campaign for the deletion of a previously existing game option that clearly a bunch of people did like to play.

As for monitoring game creation data - Surely a fairer test would be to have actually left PPSC up as an option? Right now game creation stats are going to tell you nothing about PPSC's remaining popularity - all you can tell is that it's gone because it's no longer an option. That's not very informative.

@valis. Your like the house pet. A purring feline

I agree with thorfi: if PPSC is unpopular, then it won't be selected - especially given that it would only be via the Advanced [sheesh, really? how about "Additional options") selection. The arguments against allowing the continued availability of PPSC are poor.

I won't recapitulate mine, but I would point out that the deliberate exclusion of an option which some of us like, just because others don't like it, is morally indefensible. If there is no additional overhead, why not? Like a pub, or bar of which we are customers, the site provides a variety of beers. If one of those traditional beers (call it PP) was removed just because some of the other patrons don't like to drink it is just crazy. Those that like the other beers are not required to drink PP, and its continued provision would make a number of us much more cheerful. It's like a form of censorship: effectively saying "You shall not use this option, because the rest don't like it". The point is: it can continue and those that don't like it don't have to select or play in games where it is the option. The only logical argument for discontinuing t as an option might be that it reduces the size of the pool of players playing the default selection: effectively redirecting by exclusion the commitment of PP drinkers like myself.

Thus it is not the fact that I can no longer play under the PPSC option, but that I feel that the imposition of that exclusion is not justifiable, either practically or morally. I am far too old, have far too little time left to put up with this. This is why it is very likely I won't be playing any further games on this site.

"if PPSC is unpopular, then it won't be selected"
I think it still will, for the argument I made earlier. PPSC sounds on the surface like an easier and fairer system than SoS, and it will probably be selected by new players who either want to experiment, or believe that itś easier to play than WTA/SoS (which may or may not be true).

To continue your beer analogy, think of it as going to a bar that decided to swap out Bud Light (that would be PPSC) in favor of Sam Adams (SoS). Even though some customers may want Budweiser, the idea is that by forcing them to drink something else, they'll appreciate it more.

I do agree that, if there's a large community that prefer PPSC, and they keep preferring it to SoS, we should consider keeping it as an option. But it depends on the size of that community.

Of course, this is all written with the assumption that SoS is objectively better than PPSC, but I have played PPSC only a few times, and never SoS, so feel free to disagree.

"I do agree that, if there's a large community that prefer PPSC, and they keep preferring it to SoS, we should consider keeping it as an option. "

We agree too.

Just wanted to take a minute to address something stunningly stupid I've read in this thread. Someone was asking who the heck ATC is to think he can make changes like this. The answer to that question is he is the person who has brought about improvements to this site for the first time in years. If you haven't paid attention those improvements are listed below. So while you may be like me, and think that PPSC should stay if people want to play it, anyone who is insulting A_Tin_Can and doing anything other then offering polite recommendations really needs to shut the hell up.

December 30th, 2015
Seven minute phases now available.
December 29th, 2015
Several corrections to the borders in the World variant.
December 27th, 2015
It is no longer possible to rejoin a game with multiple CDs as a different country.
December 24th, 2015
Game title now visible as the page title on the game board (instead of 'board').
Forum posts no longer repost when a page is refreshed.
Improved text on new thread post.
Credits page now automatically lists the moderators.
December 22nd, 2015
Unranked games now available. Unranked games return the player's bet at the end of the game.
Sum-of-Squares scoring now available.
WTA has been renamed "Draw-Size Scoring".
PPSC has been renamed "Survivors-Win Scoring".
The 'worth' section at the bottom of the game panel now tells you what your score would be if the game drew.
PPSC/SWS has been temporarily disabled for new games.
All takeovers are now free.
August 27th, 2015
Finished games now show up in the notifications bar if you have new messages.
August 25th, 2015
Added a cue to the game search page so that it is clear that clicking the current tab brings out additional search options.
The New game tab now shows all new games, not just the ones that you can afford.
Pot type is now shown on the small game panels on the home page.
August 19th, 2015
Bugfix: Destroyed units are no longer drawn when the "show move arrows" profile setting is set.
August 18th, 2015
Bugfix: Anonymous defeats no longer increment the 'defeats' count on a profile page until the game is over.
August 5th, 2015
Number of PMs displayed on the notices page increased to 50 from 35.
Guests are now allowed to use the user search feature, allowing members who have forgotten their username to find it.
July 25th, 2015
Made moderator posts clearly labelled "moderator" in global chat. This is important for the larger variants, where some countries have similar text to moderator posts.
Mousing over the upcoming live games no longer hides game notices.
May 23rd, 2015
Bugfix: CD/NMR disband ordering now works correctly on maps with 128 territories or more.
Bugfix: Colourblind map is no longer sometimes blank on page load.
May 16th, 2015
Added a mechanism for a variety of user options; the first options using the new mechanism are to hide the live games tab and to hide the move arrows on the board.
May 11th, 2015
Now games can be restricted to a minimum reliability rating at game creation time.
Bugfix: Spectate option no longer appears on finished games.
May 10th, 2015
Bugfix: Moderator posts to global press now correctly trigger the new message icon.
May 1st, 2015
Spectated games; users can now spectate games that they're not in (so that games appear on their home page and notifications).
April 21st, 2015
Spectated games; users can now spectate games that they're not in (so that games appear on their home page and notifications).
April 21st, 2015
New game mode: Hidden draw votes. This allows players to play games where you don't know who has voted for a draw or not.
Joinable games now defaults to showing public games only.
Upcoming live games now appear at the top of the forum on the front page.
April 19th, 2015
Fixed a bug where destroyed units on coasts would incorrectly appear in move previews.
March 13th, 2015
Fixed a bug where units on a coast were incorrectly able to order a support move to their own province (this bug affected display only).
"Via land" is now automatically selected as the default order for units able to move via land or via convoy
March 10th, 2015
Fixed a bug where games wouldn't be joinable after a user was banned.
Feb 27th, 2015
Fixed a graphics glitch and a few border issues on the Anc. Med variant.
Feb 11th, 2015
Game messages now have a "mark as unread" button on the chat box.
Feb 2nd, 2015
RR bugfixes - all holds no longer counted as an NMR, CDs now save NMRs correctly.
Fixed incorrectly named province on the Modern2 large map
Updated footer to link to github rather than sourceforge
January 9th, 2015:
Fixed a bug that caused an inappropriately high CD count
Members can now view their own reliability informaiton (button next to the reliability rating)
January 5th, 2015:
Reliability ratings are now live: CDs forced by mods as part of seating players in the right places for tournaments should no longer be counted. RR is calculated as a combination of CD and NMR ratios. The best way to improve your rating is to play more games and don't CD or NMR. CDs from cancelled games are included. So, players no longer need to draw games to ensure that an early CD is recorded.
All CD takeovers now cost half the points that the position is worth.
January 4th, 2015:
Fixed a bug where the messages archive links didn't show up during Spring 1901
January 2nd, 2015:
Winner Take All is now the default choice for game creation. Points per supply center games now state that they are PPSC on the game page.
December 21, 2014:
The game status bar is now sorted by time to next process rather than game ID. Games with the most imminent deadline are on the left.
Paused games now appear at the bottom of the My Games tab.
This page was added!
December 6th, 2014:
Move previews now available for saved orders. Press the move preview button (PreviewMoves) located below the map to display a preview of your orders. Some users may need to refresh the page in their browser for the preview to work.
DATC disband ordering corrected (when no destroy orders are received, and two units are equidistant from home centres, fleets disband before armies, then by alphabetical province name).