If a player has "##VOTES" anywhere in their post, even if quoting someone else, I will take that as a vote. The "##"'s purpose is to allow me to quickly scan a thread for what's important, I should not need to know the context. I would also adjudicate "I don't ##VOTE Eden" as a vote for Eden.

Pending confirmation with the co-GM, that is how I would rule such situations.

That's how we've always done it and how we probably will in the future, so let's just redact the two # symbols so that they don't get mixed up for the sake of consistency even if the GM okays it in this game.

Especially since there was a syntax error (intentional) at the end of last game. I am glad I thought to [redacted] myself :)

##VOTE Espi

Well, I didn't fool BB for long :P Did I make an obvious scum tell this time?

@Saladin:

I will humor you and explain why you are clearly wrong:

1. The first day's lynch is random chance at best: Yes, so odds are 3/13 of hitting mafia at best. Odds of hitting mafia by not lynching anyone? 0. By the way, every single day's lynch is random chance at best unless we get additional information from the cop. Thus, if you are arguing to not lynch anyone until the cop reveals, that is a different argument than the argument for a D1 lynch and it can also be destroyed with different arguments.
2. It's good for us to reduce the loss of innocent life as much as possible: yes, but it is more important to find scum. illustration: If we have two townies left and only one scum left, we can win by lynching correctly. If we have three townies left and there is three scum left, we already lost. Thus, your argument that more townies alive is better has been dismantled.
3. We don't need to lynch someone to get information: Depends on your definition of information of course. If you mean worthless information, then by all means you are right. But if you mean valuable information -> yes we do. It is the only way to gather information other than through the cop, and we never know what cruel fate may be awaiting the cop each night. Plus, if we are not lynching anyone NK analysis will be worthless since mafia will do random kill (optimal strategy in that situation). We would only have discussions to analyze, and having discussions without flips or lynches is worthless information.
4. Therefore it's best not to lynch on the first day: a flawed conclusion that follows flawed logic. A better conclusion would had been Saladin = Scum

##GM, vote count please?

DAY ONE VOTE COUNT 2.0:

Espi (2): phil_a_s, Balki Bartokomous
SaladinSmith (2): guak, Yoyoyozo
Jeff Kuta (1): SaladinSmith
americaslacker (1): TrPrado
guak (1): Lucland
ND (1): Jeff Kuta

No Vote: americaslacker, ND, Espi, DeathLlama9, bo_sox48

Currently NO ONE is set to be lynched. The day ends in 23 hours.

Sorry guys gimme a minute there's a lot of posts and I'm new too ^.^

espi - An enigma. On one hand, scum wouldn’t do that. On the other hand, town wouldn’t do that. We are in uncharted territory here and I don’t really know what to make of it. Warrants a reread. NULL.

guak - Starts out with a nice round of jokeposts, then doesn’t stop, then finally stops, then makes a few short posts before wandering off to bed. Hasn’t done much, hopefully he does more during the Second Coming of Guak, but all he’s done is go in-depth on why Saladin is scum for supporting no-lynch when it’s quite obvious Saladin thinks he’s right and he never explained why no-lynch was good until now bothers me. SLIGHT SCUM.

trprado - TrPrado didn’t exactly get off to a strong start, with the quick vote on phil, immediately switching to me when I called him out for “my vote shall stay on him,” and then only saying the phil vote was a joke before quickly clarifying that the dl vote was as well after I asked him. I pegged him as scum early in the game for these reasons, but since then he’s upped his effort, rereading phil and some (admittedly quite short) reads. Some reservations I have (below) stop me from giving him a town read, so it’s NULL for now.

Why do you agree with Espi’s “not voting early” logic? If you really do agree, why aren’t you doing it?
Why is pressure voting people who can’t see your pressure votes a good idea?
Why do you trust the green dot so much?
You generally just gave town reads to everyone who was scumhunting, will this continue?

phil_a_s

nd - A handful of jokeposts early on (OMG lynch him!!11!1!1!1!) Posts a large dump of questions he has for others. Proceeds to do nothing. I wouldn’t support a lynch of him due to his use in questioning others, and I don’t see anything scummy either (if anything I sense a towniness to his posting, even if he’s only made one substantial post and this is really just a gut read) so have a SLIGHT TOWN.

bo_sox48 - Inexplicably managed to get three votes before even showing up, but once doing so made a few decent contributions. Seems like he’s trying very hard. I don’t even remember how bo plays so will have to reread. SLIGHT TOWN.

How would you describe your playing style in comparison to the last game you played? What about to your style in general?

yoyoyozo - Votes Balki for wanting to stifle discussion and then Saladin for making a long post on a phone. Posts really short and unsatisfactory reads. I quote because it’s short enough to comfortably fit in this read - “My only two reads right now are of Espi and Deathllama and they are very slight town. Espi sounds like he's trying to get the hang of things and I'd say that Deathllama is the most involved person as of yet, though TrPrado is a close second.” Really thinks Espi is innocent. Posts “Alright, no more fooling around. It's time we got serious.” on PAGE TEN which is concerning. I don’t know why I townread him. Keeps saying that Balki’s case is poor. NULL

@yoyo - why is Balki’s case poor? If you don’t agree, rebutt it and have a nice lively debate or something.

deathllama9 - The best.

americaslacker - Who is this? Is he knew? NULL

jeff kuta - Mentioned the change of playstyle earlier. He’s talked quite a bit, and jokeposted quite a bit as well. I don’t like the contradiction between telling Prado “Is your vote on americaslacker basically a policy lynch? Is it too early to talk about those? Bleh.” and then on the next page saying “Personally, I am in favor of policy lynches. I think the rules of this game should take care of that though. I just dislike lurkers.” I also don’t understand how slacker not returning impacts your having reads. Hasn’t scumhunted enough and for that gets SLIGHT SLIGHT SCUM.

saladinsmith - He seems town-y, but that’s just a gut read. Spends too much time advocating for no-lynch and not enough time actually trying to find scum. NULL, but leaning town a little bit.

balki bartokomous - SLIGHT TOWN. Most of the town cred he’s accrued is because of his case on Espi, and he did push Espi for quite a while. It seems authentic to me (so did Wjessop, which is so far the only reason I hesitate - curse you Wjessop if you’re reading this) - he hasn’t posted a full reads list yet or much thoughts on non-Espi people, which would both help quite a bit. His skill at diplomacy is carrying over to text mafia quite well I suppose.

lucland - SLIGHT SLIGHT SCUM, that second “slight” is because it’s entirely a possibility that he’s just a newb. Feels contempt against newbies? Extremely short reads. @Lucland - just putting “like” next to somebody’s name isn’t really helpful. “I'm pretty suspicious of this guy. It's hidden somewhere early. If I have to vote now, I'd vote this guy” is absurd. Also, complaining about contempt a page after insulting bo is a bit rude.

please explain your reads in more depth.
why is guak scummy? (sort of #1, but I’d like to see more consideration towards your vote)

EDIT: for my "Well, I didn't fool BB for long :P Did I make an obvious scum tell this time?" I mixed up BB's and bos names in their posts, bo unvoted me, BB did not. Sorry for the mix up.

No worries, Valis!

tldr;

Scum - Guak, Jeff, Lucland
Town - Balki, Bo, ND
Null - The rest of you

Discuss! Also ##VOTE GUAK as he's my strongest scumread

Oh wait I forgot Phil. Sorry Phil! I'll reread you in a bit and then I have to go find where I left my life - I think I dropped it down a vent while typing reads.

Answer my questions please guys

Phil - I think Phil didn't really seriously post that long, and he still only has the one largish post on Espi - NULL for now, hasn't done too much but has contributed, I don't get a townish vibe though

Vote log thus far:

(Player: voted for X,X,X,etc.)

Espi:
guak: bo_sox48, SaladinSmith
TrPrado: phil_a_s, DeathLlama9, guak (unvoted), bo_sox48, americaslacker
phil_a_s: Yoyoyozo, Espi
ND: DeathLlama9 (unvoted)
bo_sox48: Espi (unvoted),
Yoyoyozo: Jeff, Balki, SaladinSmith
DeathLlama9: bo_sox48 (unvoted), SaladinSmith (unvoted), guak
americaslacker:
Jeff Kuta: Espi, bo_sox48, TrPrado, ND
SaladinSmith: Jeff
Balki Bartokomous: Espi, bo_sox48, Espi
Lucland: guak

Let me know if I missed anything.

@Valis ... is there a difference between players who unvoted and those who didn't vote?

@Bo, It was kept track of earlier for participation rule purposes.

All right, so the people who unvoted aren't getting booted? Cool.

I am always a re-read for you aren't I DL? Also I completely agree with you on most of them, aside from a few small points you brought up, I will mention them later. Your case on Yoyo is one I made earlier, well the last part of it anyway.

"How would you describe your playing style in comparison to the last game you played? What about to your style in general?"

Considering I have played nearly 200 mafia games since the last time I played on webDip, I would say it's completely different. I'm better. My hope is that my play style is little like it was before, because before it was pathetic no matter what role I drew.

For the record, I don't think tomorrow's vote will be completely random. There is an element of uncertainty, but it's a far cry from today.

Also, I don't think I voted for guac.

Hello everyone, I would just like to clear some up because someone called me lurking scum. I am americaslacker I was not aware that the game started until a couple of hours ago and between now and then I have become side tracked a couple of times. I am on page 6 currently and hopefully I will be more active and have a vote by the end of the night, thank you very much - Love teh slacker

@Saladin: tomorrow is as random as today if we lynch no one

@DL: so how about actually saying why you think I am scum instead of saying you 'feel' I am scum? Enumerating what I have done does not in any case justify why you think I am scum

1. - Espi - Balki's case (and my subsequent case) were solid in my opinion, and I don't think he responded very well to those. Still, I like his reaction under pressure. I feel like I can learn more from reactions than anything, so I'll flip-flop from my last read and go slight town. Still hoping for a world of improvement.
2. - guak - I'm not sure if he's here to contribute or here to avoid being called out for not being here. Either way, he's not here enough, but I don't think he's been all that scummy when he's here. Post some reads please. Null.
3. - TrPrado - So far, he's wasting his vote. Pressure voting someone that won't see you putting pressure on them is useless. Slight scum.
4. - phil_a_s - I tend to have trouble reading phil because he's quiet and efficient in the way he posts, but he usually doesn't say a whole lot. I'm not seeing any striking differences from the phil I've seen before, but that doesn't help me read him - mafia phil and town phil are fairly similar. Null.
5. - ND - Is it just me or is he not doing anything? A few posts, a few questions, but nothing groundbreaking. It feels like calculated lurking. Slight scum.
6. - bo_sox48 - me
7. - Yoyoyozo - Still lazy. He hasn't done anything important as far as I'm aware. Slight scum.
8. - DeathLlama9 - Posted legitimate reads. He has been asking town-led questions and seems to be searching for scum. I don't have any qualms about what he has done so far. Slight-moderate town.
9. - americaslacker - gonna die in 24 hours unless he shows.
10. - Jeff Kuta - He hasn't scumhunted much at all. He keeps questioning SS, but I'm not sure I call it scumhunting. Pressure voting ND, no issues with that. Null, but would like to see some coherent reads.
11. - SaladinSmith - I don't appreciate that he keeps insisting on a no lynch. It's pretty scummy at this point in the day and there's clearly no town benefit for it. Insistence on a random vote today has me on edge. Slight scum. ##VOTE SS unless he clears this thing up.
12. - Balki Bartokomous - Getting good vibes from him. The case against Espi was solid. He needs to spread out the accusations a little bit, though. Right now, he's tunneling. Slight town.
13. - Lucland - Not seeing much from him. He was around for a short while last night, but that's it. He's lurking too much for my liking. Slight scum.

@bo: stop manipulating the vote log. Saladin did not vote for me, he is better than an OMGUSer. DL voted for me

D1 Suspect Statement Analysis

So the game has been going on for about 24 hours now. This analysis will go to the end of Page 12 as that is the latest I have read before posting this message. I want to look through for strange/quirky posts from the players. I focused on what I thought was either town or scumtells. My post is my thoughts/analysis on these posts.

I want to follow this with a reads list so that should be my next big post following this one. One thing we have to remember is that just because a player is experienced or new doesn’t mean they can’t calculate. I have labeled each section according to player name/statement.

Yoyoyozo

Pg. 1: “(redacted) GM does the Mafia have a roleblock?”

-Okay so we are on PAGE ONE and already Yoyoyozo asks a question about the mafia setup. Was it necessary to call the GM here? Could Yoyoyozo not have looked at the GM’s game start post to read the instructions? Either we have a town member who does not read the thread or someone calculating a message such as this to make it appear as if he has no idea what the roles of the game are.

The question must be asked why would yoyoyozo not want to read the thread (on page 1). Did he want us to think he was clueless about the mafia setup? Did he want us to think this was an innocent town tell?-

Espi

Pg. 1: “Mr. Cop, I do no think you should reveal just yet but others may be wrong on this.”

-Been covered, been answered, but we need to be mindful that a player brought this up on Page 1. In my opinion this is a very strange discussion to bring up on Page 1 since the town has one power role. Why on Earth would the cop ever reveal on Page 1? I don’t get it. It should be remembered.

Pg. 4: “Jeff from the little I have seen tends to be very blunt, so him starting off on me could give very useful insight on both of us. If either he or I are scum, an argument between us might hold a key to figuring it out later on.”

-Maybe not a scumtell or towntell but a truly remarkable statement. If people remember M9 Ghug-Wjessop played a similar game. Something I realized too late admittedly. Their earlier arguments were all meant to distract and detract. We need to look closer at the Jeff-Espi relationship I think.

Espi certainly seems to think that there is a relationship and Jeff said he would be remiss if he didn’t vote Espi first before bo (paraphrasing). So if there is a semi-relationship at works is it one where one of the individuals is buddying the other or a case of two scum playing at a town relationship to fool and trick us?-

Pg. 7: “Balki, part of that is I want to gain information by giving out bait, seeing who takes the bait and who doesn’t, while also seeing what people are doing with the bait.”

-You summary and your town-null-scum list on page is pretty bad. I don’t really think you have applied any analysis on who has taken the “bait” whatever that means. We need to ask ourselves what this so called bait is. Why would Espi want to dominate and distract us from pages of potential scum hunting if he was town? If you were a town member why would you say scummy things to bait people to looking at you closer if you were town? Wouldn’t that just be wasting people’s time? If you were scum though why would you bait people to look closer at you? Probably to defend yourself and try and clear yourself. That is what I think is occurring here.

Pg. 7: “So I can’t just name 2 others and hope to get them Lynched, gotcha”

-Why has the town not picked up more on this? Is this more of your “bait” Espi?

Pg. 9: “I don’t have a good explanation as to what I am doing.”

-Espi rebuttal to Balki is full of stuff like this. It’s totally possible he is openly embracing the motif of a bad townie to hide his identity as a mafia member. But as I stated above I think a lot of what Espi has done is calculated and I think he is scummy to be doing it.-

The Bo bandwagon vs. Americanslacker

Started by Jeff on Page 3. Joined by Guak on Page 4. DeathLlama joins on Page 4. DL first to unvote. TrPrado joins on Page 7 due to Bo being on but not posting.
TrPrado votes for Americanslacker on Page 9 when Bo shows up.

So why is this important? Well we have experienced folks like Jeff and Guak joining and starting this wagon which attracted the attention of DL and TR. The wagon has ended, but why did it begin in the first place. Becaues, BO is a big poster in this community and Americanslacker isn’t. I imagine they did it too be funny, but since we know there is a relationship between Espi-Jeff (or at least one being felt on Espi’s part) we need to take a closer look at this bandwagon.

Why policy vote BO and not Americanslacker? If Jeff and Guak were really concerned with bo not posting and then once he did post why didn’t they policy vote Americanslacker?

Questions to consider and I will revisit this later down the line, but I would like the community’s input on it because maybe I am reading too much into this or maybe I am not reading into it enough?

Guak

“Right now, it’s all random guesswork.” (Pg. 6)

-Not really. There are plenty of connections so far even at this early stage as my reads list points out (below). You could even argue that there is a voting connection between you and Jeff due to the fact that you joined Jeff’s Bo bandwagon on Page 4. Guak is an experienced mafia player on this website. Way more than me and potentially anyone in this game. For him to be a) active and b) expounding these statements is concerning. Simply because Guak knows that there are connections and evidence to find in the early days. It’s not random. His activity because he is bored seems strange to me and it is evident he is changing his playstyle for this game. What that means I don’t know, but I have noted it.

Jeff

“You’ve probably seen bo and I interact on these forums. I had to get in the first punch here.” (Pg. 6)

-Jeff’s clarification for the Bo bandwagon was that he wanted to get the first punch in on a guy who posts a lot on the website. So in effect he is acting outside the town’s best interest and in his own personal interest by voting for someone who just posts on the webdip forum a lot. This is not in the town’s best interest and people who act outside of the town’s best interest should be watched heavily.

SaladinSmith

(Pg. 6) “So my vote is effectively random but I’ll say (redacted) vote Jeff”

-We really need to erase the word ‘random’ from our vocabulary. If you can’t start taking notes and connecting voting connections, and statements from players reinforcing other players at this stage of the game then the town is already headed down the path to ruin.

(Pg. 8) “Also, I haven’t seen any other votes for Jeff. If I were mafia, I would pick someone who an innocent person had already voted for. Then my mafia buddies could back me up, hopefully with another innocent vote or two, and it would look like popular opinion.”

-Here we have a statement that could be a mafia member advocating using the game thread to communicate with mafia partners. How many times do you (speaking to everyone here) see someone advocate mafia strategy in the thread?

“Wow this is much busier than where I usually play” (Pg. 6). It’s not like Saladin is an inexperienced player and if he voted Jeff (as mafia) and none of his partners joined him on the vote then perhaps he was feeling jaded and slipped when posting his Pg. 8 statement.

(Pg. 9): “No ND, I have no evidence whatsoever that Jeff is mafia. The odds are roughly 1/13. But I’m sticking with my vote because votes on the first day are random either way.”

-Totally disagree. First it’s a 3/13 chance because there are three mafia members. I don’t believe it’s random when we can look at the post history to see who supports who in voting, who argues with who, who suspects who, what do the reads list look like, example bare-bones or detailed? There is a lot of evidence in this game already. This is a strange and cop out answer for someone who has played mafia 5-6 times on smaller forum sites..

Lucland

“Did Americaslacker already die?” (Pg. 10)

-Um, what? Is this guy playing the same game as the rest of us? Lucland can you not read through the entire thread to see if there is a GM message confirming a player death? Do you not know we are in the day phase? Either this is a dumb town tell or a calculated message. I don’t know, thoughts? Anyone who doesn’t read through the thread is scummy to me and this was a really scummytell to me.

Conclusion

These are my initial suspects. Statements I have found to be calculated and scummy with citations to back them up. I encourage everyone to check my research and weigh in on it. I am going to make a reads list next and comment a big on the current discussion (got to read page 13/14).

For now I vote ESPI as I think he is the most logical and documented scum suspect in my list.

##VOTE ESPI

Also, read lists suck and are pretty worthless. I will post some reads like I did with Saladin, but I am not wasting my time doing one of those 'complete' read lists that say absolutely nothing important

@guak ... where did I say Saladin voted for you?

It gives everyone a connection to every flip. If you get enough reads lists out of people, it's fairly easy to see who is hedging on who. It's solid evidence in later days, especially so for day 1 since only mafia know all of our roles.

@ND: it is stupid that you say that because I am experienced I shouldn't say statements like that. It is the other way around. Through experience I have learned how utterly wrong we all usually are D1. Thus, I have in recent games taken the approach of arguing in favor of information gathering lynches in D1 and D2 so that by D3 we have enough of a base to build those connections with evidence.

I have always said that D1 and D2 interactions are incredibly valuable once you see them with D4 goggles, but are completely worthless during D1 and D2.

@bo: in your vote log