Wilders split from the VVD, which is the center-right party you spoke of. Here are his economic positions as *he* states them:

Lower taxes, including the ever-rising local taxes, which should directly be frozen and then lowered each year.
This policy of lower taxes should result in a flat tax, which will stimulate growth and hence will be self-financing.
The mortgage rent will always stay tax deductible for homeowners.
Fewer rules. The existing rules have to reduce by at least 50 percent. For each new rule we should first terminate two old ones. To start, we should close the ministry of economic affairs.
Investment in Research & Development, stimulation of innovation and long term protection by patents.
Stopping the “Dutch subsidy state”, because pumping money around is useless and expensive. Let the people decide for them selves for what charities they like to pay.
Development aid will be stopped, except emergency aid. The current support of 0,8% of the BBP (structurally 4 billion Euro on a yearly basis) will be reduced to 0,1%, only to be used for emergency aid. The function of Minister of development aid can be terminated.
To stimulate the development in poor countries we are in favor of ending international trading blockades for these countries and their produce.
Tough approach to fraud and corruption, certainly also at the government
More people working by eliminating minimum wage law and a more flexible employment laws [that make firing people easier].
A ruthless shrinking of the government (including of a thorough review of civil servants employment laws): 50% less civil servants.
A direct end to the “poldermodel” [consensus model based on multi lateral meetings with all partners like: government, employer organizations, unions, etc.], that means an end to the talk and meetings palaces like the SER [Social Economical Forum] and the “Stichting van de Arbeid” (Labor Society).
The abolishment of making collective agreement laws for a whole sector of employment.
But at the same time much more money for the elderly nursing homes.
Tough measures against fraud and other unintended use of social benefits, so that there can grow more support and solidarity with the really vulnerable and needed.
No export of social benefits – from child support to disabilities pay – to countries outside the EU.
Remigration will be greatly stimulated
Receivers of social benefits who are not fully disabled should as a return do community tasks (in care institutions, or public gardens) until they can return to regular jobs.
Child support will be limited to 2 children.
More attention to the income position of the middle group
The government will always rule about licenses within a prior limited reasonable time frame.

Yeah buddy, sounds like a "leftwinger" to me. I'm glad I'm getting "lectures" about Dutch politics from "experts" like you.

http://dutchreport.blogspot.com/2005/03/dutch-declaration-of-independence.html#DeclarationOfIndependence_Economical

That's a good point you're making. I still think his retirement age plans are too much on the left. Many of what you're saying above is a bit ambiguously right or left wing though: making employment laws less strict can enhance company's willingness to hire new personnel, but for most of the other points I admit that seeing Wilders' program like this he's more to the right than I thought. Since he disqualified himself as an able politician on many occasions, I never took the trouble of reading it before.

@ redhouse. ......ambiguously right or left wing though.....

My take on what you say is that political idealogy can often be circular rather than linear. The idealogy of the extreme left and right are not poles apart as if they were at the extreme ends of a straight line, but rather come together more in the nature of a circle.

That is an excellent point fulhamish 'les extremes se touchent'. I get rather bored by the whole bipolar right or left discussions, its so last century.. In multiple party (more then two) democracies nowadays it is hard to say that any party is completely right or left wing. On top of that one has the problem that what constitutes of right wing in one country is not even remotely right wing in another.

I havent read this whole conversation and I am not going to, but it is interesting to see a person that seems to be defending the north korean state actually teaches comparative european politics. Such a person should know that those extreme types of government, communism, nazism or whatever ideological dictatorism, have cost hundreds of millions of lives and are to be avoided preferably.

On Wilders, his party program doesnt really mean much, as he is a populist. He will vote on certain issues of the left on other on the right, but more importantly will change stuff stuff at will to maximize his potential voter body.

I disdain the comments made about the assasinated politician Fortuyn, he had some very interesting ideas and he didnt overstep the bounds of civilized behavior and speech, just for the sake of being a popularist, like wilders.

@Fulhamish, lets derail this thread ;) : What do you think Fulham will do against manU tonight? And why do you think Jol is not putting Ruiz in the starting line up since they bought him?

+1 MrcsAurelius.. nicely said.


Ridiculous they don't field Ruiz.. if he gets in shape he would be an added value to most PL teams, and definitely for Fulham.

Yeah that always seems to be an interesting striker's problem. They regularly really need a season of play to get in shape and learn how they can score in their new team, as their moments of actually receiving the ball in a good position are so scarce. I find it interesting that strikers sometimes perform really shity in their first season and when given the play time, actually achieve good form in their second season, scoring lots of goals.

Anyway, I love PL football.. I hope the matches dont get cancelled because of the strikes this week, there are some really good ones coming up. It has been a crazy season to watch, with all the big scores in the big games! Hoping for more :)

Now being a Fulham supporter of course, hope springs eternal. I wonder about Evra as a defender, although he is terrific going forward. Ruiz is starting to look good and I would love to see him, or Clint D. (by far our best player) come to that, give him a run for his money. Ferdinand is starting to look a bit slow and it is a real bonus that Vidic is out, particularly as AJ still has got a good turn of speed. That is the optimistic view,of course, from one (plus two sons) who will be there tonight. I will, of course, most likely have to eat my words tomorrow.
Mentioning no names I can think of one particular participant in this thread who will definitely be rooting for Man U. I suppose I could always put a complaint into the mods about metagaming (!) :-)
Come on you whites!

''Ridiculous they don't field Ruiz''

Check him (and Clint) out here in last Saturday's game:

http://www.fulhamfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/FulhamTV/0,,10415,00.html

Cool you are going. Wel you do have some excellent results this month against top 5ish teams. Draw against arsenal and winning the game against livpool. Hope you and your sons will see a great game tonight!

Thank you. It is always fun down there win or lose. I recomend a visit if you are ever in London.

I was gonna talk about how ridiculous this statement is "All it has are satellite images and accounts from a handful of defectors who claimed to have escaped prison."

then I seen this
"The odds are high - and he's never said anything to make me believe otherwise, before I muted his ass - that he's a spoiled rich white boy who has never had to actually strive and sacrifice in his life, but mummy and daddy did something to make him mad, and he started down the "I'm a communist, look at meeee" phase just to piss them off. And then he found the *internet*, where he can be the Internet Tough Guy, fighting the Good Fight against evil capitalists (on his home computer or tablet or smartphone, that don't exist in NK), without having to actually, you know, *do* anything."

which I pretty much agree with

Does that make it easier to mute him, Sic? Because believe me, it does wonders for the blood pressure ;)

The telltale sign of an apologist for a horrific regime is the continued but vague appeal to the negative influence of the imperialist United States to explain ever act (every act that isn't simply denied of course), as if that exonerates all crimes done under duress and makes the regime... I dun't know, a force of nature rather than a moral actor responsible for its actions.

It's genius because it *is* sometimes a legitimate justification for actions and so cannot be swept away as pure nonsense, but it utilized in a way that it ignores specificity and moral agency.... thus making "but the imperialists are putting them in duress!" capable of defending anyone or anything, no matter how reprehensible.

That, and the denigration of the character and authenticity of dissenters. Oh, those jerks that dislike Kim Jong Il and escape North Korea.... they are just making up stories about the camps for political prisoners to get fame and attention! The Armenians are just whiners! The Kurds are all secretly Arab-hating facists!

Let's think about this... does one flee a country with no clear vision of ones future, with no possessions, into a outer world that is vilified in the domestic media.... for petty reasons? I think its the most egregious (but necessary) logical philandering of apologists when they dismiss accounts like this entirely.

The handful of Iraqi ex-pats who had sizable wealth built up both in Iraq and abroad, political gains to be had, and western educations are dis-analogous.

Exactly.

Just like in his final desperate attempts to secure a lost debate on communism he will recite the "cruelty of the capitalist system", also deliberately keeping that vague or present random examples.

I feel sorry for Putin. It seems like he somehow feels responsible to fight for communism on this forum, like we're not presenting him any choice but to form a line of defense here.

Ya I just cant bring myself to dismiss him entirely, he DOES make at least a few good points. I sortof have this mental picture of a very astute intelligent young guy, with ab accurate critique of the worlds problems, and a NK agent with a norinco to hus head

"You say DPRK is greatest nation on earth! Say it now!!!"

Some of the stupidest people I know are astute and intelligent young men.

What he said.

Confirmation bias is actually *more* prevalant in intelligent people, as they can find more ways to justify what they want to believe.

I guess part of the reason I am so disdainful of his idiocy is I remember *exactly* what a retarted monkey I used to be on BBSes back in the Dark Age (ie: lo on 20 years ago), where I damn well Knew The Truth, and it was my Duty To Defend What Was Right.

It's fucking embarrassing to remember what a an idiot I was when I was his age. I grew out of it with time, and the odds are he will too - but it wasn't arguments by other people that caused me to grow and have a more nuanced view of the world, it was realizing I was being a goddam moron.

He's damn well going to continue on his current path unless and until he chooses not to, but that doesn't obligate me to put up with it. My time is valuable - I choose not to let him irritate me in my (all too rare) downtime.

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING IS *NOT A GODDAM SUGGESTION*

Actually, what probably did it most for me was becoming a moderator on a usenet group, because I couldn't afford to just call someone a dickhead any longer - I represented not just myself, but the moderation team that had trusted me with the responsibility to help maintain the group.

Of course, even then I knew how to pick my battles, but my debating skills improved becuase I could no longer just call someone an asswipe, but had to explain *why* they were an asswipe

Sorry to interrupt the daily scheduled Two Minutes Hate.

It's truly breaktaking how people here have such an intolerance for opposing points of view that they can't even have a discussion without raising their blood pressure, while they simultaneously congratulate themselves for how moderate, mature clear-headed, rational, and tolerant they are. And they even wax poetic about confirmation bias! The cognitive dissonance is awesome!

Anyway I'm glad this thread has turned into nothing but a potpourri of cheap armchair psychoanalysis (including hilarious contributions from people who supposedly "muted" me) that we've all grown so used to and I personally have grown extremely tired of. Perhaps you all should start up a new field of "Putin33 studies" , since you all seem to know so much about me without having ever met me and it sure seems more entertaining for you than actually defending your positions.

Have fun entertaining yourselves with these hateful circlejerks where you all confirm to each other how morally superior you are to me. You're not the only one who regrets having wasted their time.

Have a nice day.

*by people here I mean many of the people commenting in this thread.

"since you all seem to know so much about me without having ever met me and it sure seems more entertaining for you than actually defending your positions. "

Coming from Putin.. HAHAHAHA

Putin criticizing others for reading into his personality is like krellin criticizing others for calling him names.

HAHAHAHA counts for an argument I guess. Let the theater continue.

Of course, if the day should arrive when Santa ever bothers to substantiate his charge of hypocrisy with evidence that I ever *read into* his (lovely) personality, wake me up.

Its not that we're not 'defending our positions' its that you have no position. you are making unsubstantiated claims then yelling at us for asking you questions. You have NO proof of what you are trying to convince us of. Sat photos and escapees are just propaganda. lol.

Right, no proof, of course. Best tactic ever. Accuse someone of providing no proof after they gave you links and reports, especially when you provided nothing but some non-descript satellite images for the few charges you did bother to substantiate.

And you're the only one here who even did that.

For what it's worth, I don't intend to make personal and unknowable assumptions about you, mate.

I just like criticizing ideas and ways of arguing that I disagree with. Nothing wrong with that I hope. :)

That being said, I think your analysis about North Korea is crazy. But your criticism of group-think is well and valid. ;)

Speaking of group-think... have you been to North Korea recently? :D