Hey Balki, that signed picture needs to be in my inbox stat

@demon, really your convo with Balki proves my side of the story that I was working on Balki to vote out ghug and not snowy

@Balki- Oh... so *that* thing that is completely nowhere near what you said is what we should have known you meant to say. It's weird that you keep "meaning to say" things rather than just saying what you mean. It's almost like you are being obviously and openly manipulative.

@Vash, your question is hard.
Assassin, Determined, Enjoyment.

Flum, can you address the statement I posted about what you said to me about snowy?

Yeah, you weren't voting ghug. Balki was immune. If I got you off snowy the only one left is me lol.
Balki even told you that the whole time I wanted ghug out. Talking to you wasn't going to accomplish that and would very possibly backfire.

Balki told me what?

Also, did you make snowy vote for me while you voted ghug? Where the fuck was the coordination there?

In the transcript you posted he even tells you I'm trying to convince him to take out ghug.

It's really strange that demon is trying to argue against the biggest failure in my game, and argue that it was still going according to my plan. Trust me, I'd love to take credit for every vote that happened.
There are many votes where I do get the most credit in my opinion though. More than Balki and Demon. I hope the jury can see that, and I hope they still have questions if they're on the fence.

"Also, did you make snowy vote for me while you voted ghug? Where the fuck was the coordination there?"

No, Flum did not do that. I did. I wanted Snowy to vote for Demon to undercut her potential claim at final jury that she had no votes cast on her, and to add significance to the fact that I had no votes cast for me. In the end, ghug voted for me at last tribal, and I ended up thinking this was kind of silly anyway. But I did that, and this was the reason I did it.

One more quick appeal to Ezio.

You say Demon played a better game because she did it honestly. I think Moscow's anger at her shows pretty clearly she still stabbed people. She was just in a poor enough position she didn't even have the luxury to choose to stab if she wanted.
She even admitted she didn't do anything to advance the snowy vote. She thought everyone was just doing it. I think I still played a more impressive game than her.

I've been asked whether Jury members are allowed to communicate via PM. For this phase, the answer to that is no. However, you'll have 24 hours after this in which players will post their closing statements and you'll cast your votes, during which PMing other Jury members is allowed (and the Ponderosa QT will be reopened for those 24h).

@ floom Lol I didn't have to do anything drastic it still happened. All I'm hearing is you failed to stop it.

@balki that wasn't even true before that vote lol

@Folks,

I need to step away for a bit. I enjoyed playing this game with all of you. Like, a lot. I really had a lot of fun plotting with you, strategizing with you, and connecting with you. And I have a lot of respect for the players and captainmeme. It was a well-run and well-played game.

I regret that some of this jury discussion has veered more towards the personal. I'm going to take a deep breath and chant to myself "It's just a game" for a while. I'm sure I'll be back around this evening cause I can't help myself. Cheers.

@flum that's fair.
I do wish you'd made this easier for me and had Snowy instead of Demon.

Okay one more question for demon:
It appears that throughout your game you made moves that undercut people you were working with, but didn't directly oppose them (Voting out Chaqa with little counsel from me, telling me to vote Oztra despite you voting bo, leaking information to Ezio about what information ghug has told you, giving away the white rock which forced ghug to need to win the final immunity challenge (when if you didn't just either of you could have won it or play a guessing game on who has it) and then when the forseeable conclusion of the action (ghug being voted out) you didn't make a vote for ghug or with ghug, just letting him die). What my question is about the intention, because there are a number of possible explanations for each of these moves which can change how one interprets and evaluates them.

My question is 1) why take these actions at all? and 2) why be indirect instead of direct?

Because I see a number of possible explanations either:
A) You wanted to help them but found yourself bound by your own separate desires and relationships with different people or didn't think ahead enough
B) You really only cared about how the move affected you and not those you were working with
C) You didn't want to help them but couldn't bring yourself to directly do it yourself
D) You were just doing what felt right to you without thinking
E) Something else entirely

All of these have pros and cons but some I find more respectable than others, so please consider your answer wisely, if they differ from situation to situation feel free to make that clear.

Well this sort of died. I take it jury have almost decided?

I'm on the computer but I have the quote from demon she sent me after I won immunity.
"Contrary to popular belief I'm fine with voting ghug if you think that's the right move. I don't think we're winning over Balki but I don't expect to win either way"

@Moscow: for the complete answer, yes, I was always actively planning for the jury vote. I was planning as early as redemption island because my heart sank a bit when bozo came back and I knew he was on the jury. (I'll be pretty surprised if I get his vote, since I voted against him so many times when he was always trying to work with me again. Ugh, that part wasn't fun)
I tried to keep stabbing at a minimum.
I did end up stabbing uclabb (but I was hoping he wasn't going to hold it too against me because it seems like everyone in the game stabbed him. and currently it seems like he's not too against me which I'm very thankful for).
I do consider my vote against you (Moscow) a stab. Even though we never officially made a long term alliance, I did feel like we had an unspoken one after you shared with me the hidden idol clue, so it still felt as much of a stab as any other. I hope I still get your jury vote, but it's one I recognize I might have lost.
Bozo as well was a stab, but I did before he was necessarily in the jury, so at the time I thought it wouldn't hurt me too bad.
Ezio was a stab, but I didn't think it was one that would necessarily cost me a vote at the end since it wasn't unreasonable.
Ghug was a stab I guess, but I'd be stabbing Meme if I didn't vote for ghug because that would be playing against my win condition lol.

I did lose some votes, but I knew both Balki and demon (yes even demon) backstabbed some people too and that it would even out and that I'd still have a reasonable chance at winning.

YOU SHOULD BE LOOKING FOR PEOPLE WITH BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS

Almost all of us here play Mafia. In Mafia, you advance yourself in the game by voting out mafia. You can win by being the one responsible for voting out the mafia members, or you can sit back, let others take control of the game, and win through good fortune.

At the end, we all take a step back and award MVP based on the person who played the best. If I were mafia, and somebody caught me and voted me out, I don't say "Argh, you caught me, I'm not voting you." That would be silly. I swallow my pride, say "well done," and vote for that person for MVP.

In the game of Survivor, you advance yourself in the game by voting out almost everyone else. You succeed by being the one responsible for voting out others, or you can sit back, let others take control of the game, and succeed through good fortune.

At the end, we take a step back and award the sole Survivor based on the person who played the best. It's a pretty silly game if folks just run around trying to figure out who was responsible for voting them out and then voting for someone else. If you do that, you are trying to award good fortune, and not skill. It's also a silly game if folks are voting because they want to be someone's best friend. We don't need to play the game at all to have that vote.

I have seen two "knocks" against me here, other than Fluminator's attempts to be a poor-man's Balki and take credit for stuff that I did. I have seen complaints that I broke alliances and voted people out, and I have seen circular assertions that I did not create the best jury for myself.

In response to the first -- you're damn right I did that. That's how you actively advance yourself in the game. That is how you succeed through skill and not good fortune. I believe the sporting thing to do is to brush yourself off, and say "well played, you got me."

In response to the circular argument that I had poor strategy because I lost before the jury. That has yet to be determined. You decide whether to award active strategy, or passive good fortune. I have respect for the jury. I won't pander to you. I won't try to score points by suggesting that I wasn't responsible for stuff. I was responsible for stuff. I have blood on my hands. I made it to argue before you -- I survived the final tribe despite being the clear front-runner in the survey -- because I took active and thoughtful steps to make it so.

Name one thing I've taken credit for that you did?

Flum says: "Name one thing I've taken credit for that you did?"

- Balki/Flum alliance
- Ezio vote
- white rock
- making it to the end

How many pages is your messages list at the final tribe?

The white rock discussion is a perfect encapsulation. On the surface, it's like "Flum got a white rock," what a nice move. But that's why looking at the transcript is such a powerful thing. Flum say back, with apathy. Balki used the white rock discussion to (1) make a final 3 deal with Demon that Demon recognized in not voting with ghug on the final vote (NOTE: ghug's "dying wish" was for Demon to vote with him against me), and (2) secure a white rock for Balki that kept Balki safe from a ghug/Demon bloc even if they wanted to make one.

I put in the effort. I took control. I secured the white rock. And then Flum says:

"Holy crap. She just gave me the rock.”

Transcript doesn't lie.

Jurors: ask for transcripts. The transcript tells the tale.

I feel that I never really posted this here, despite having expressed my views elsewhere (probably) so I'll say it again
Were I to vote Balki for the victor I would be telling everyone here that "it's fine to backstab Snowy, as long as it's sufficiently impressive he'll vote for you anyway."

It's simply not in my best interests. And I would have believed you would understand this aspect of voting, which is why I don't think your betrayal was particularly artful in any wise.

##GM CALL
Once the finalists' final statements conclude, can we jurors get like 24h to confer among ourselves without finalist intervention to discuss our votes?

Wait what? Sure, you can say you initiated the alliance with me. I think what's more impressive is that I made myself look like your best ally from your point of view when you allied with absolutely everyone.

Are you really taking credit for the Ezio vote? You literally told me you were fine sheeping me that round. The reason I chose Ezio was because he targeted me in the past. Are you claiming you were responsible for that?

Are you really claiming that me pretending to be on the fence with the Ezio vote when talking to demon so I could get a white rock out of it was your doing? I'm pretty certain I was the one who brought it up with you that I was going for the white rock.

Also, you technically did make it to the end only because I brought you. You literally say you thought I was the most likely player to bring you to the end. That's why you never stabbed me like you did with all your other alliances.

Balki, I think you spent so much time "nudging" and "subtly manipulating" that you forgot about the most important part. Actually doing things. I didn't nudge people to do my work. I just did it myself.

Snowy says: "It's simply not in my best interests. And I would have believed you would understand this aspect of voting, which is why I don't think your betrayal was particularly artful in any wise."

No, I did not believe that you would use your vote to meta-game. I believed (and believe) you will use your vote to choose the best player.

And saying "you should have expected that I would meta-game, so you're clearly not the best player" is a circular ridiculousism.

Seriously Snowy -- using your vote to make sure people don't stab you in the future is a seflish dishonor to the game.

Shame.

That's nonsense. You should absolutely have expected that. I even told you as such, straight up, and others expressed similar sentiments.

This was your critical mistake - your inability to create your ideal jury. As I said, you burned too many bridges on your way to the final 3.

Balki, I would almost buy your "honor" pablum if I thought you would practice what you preach for even the slightest second. But alas, I do not.

@Flum, TRANSCRIPTS! Use transcripts. Not your Flummy gloss.

You're a second-rate coattail riding Balki, and any votes you receive will be from people who have the following criteria:

(1) punish people or set myself up not to be stabbed in the future;
(2) vote for who is most deserving out of those who are left.

But I still like you. You're fun.

Nice dodge. I stand by my last post. You couldn't deny any of it.