Vice.com is a notorious rightwing sleaze magazine. Just an FYI.

I know that. It's definitely very biased. However it is footage from inside North Korea, which is definitely interesting,

ok putin I agree with pretty much everything you just said, at least the ideas at the core, dont think I would put it the same. You are barking up the wrong tree.
I dont really think this conversation on phpdiplomacy is contributing to general anti-NK sentiment, and if it is you are certainly not helping by absolutely refusing to give me any good reason to believe Nk is not a horrible, oppressive place. You gave me some one link about standard of living. ok thats a start, again you have changed my view of NK with just that. I no longer buy imperialist lies about how dirty/starving/impverished it is.

Now if you could just give me like, one more link, that shows korean people have basic human rights, that there are in fact NOT numerous prison camps dotting the country, that people who try to leave N korea are NOT in fact killed, that the state news agency reports accurate, factual information in the hopes of informing its citizens, that there is NOT some kind of bizarro living god cult built around the kims?
cuz that would be awesome.

YOU obviously dont think Nkorea is oppressive, why? How did you come to that conclusion? what evidence did you use to reach said conclusion? where can I find said evidence?

I am not the closed minded westerner war hawk you seem to think I am, I would appreciate if you didnt tell me what my beliefs are. I have suffered and bled for them. Now if you could treat me like an adult please, and stop trying to get me to stop asking by making me fear that continuing my line of questioning is going to put the blood fo millions of koreans on solely my hands

Sic, I know the video link I posted is long, and also happens to be very biased. However I do think that you'll find it helpful in learning about North Korea. Given that its a non-governmental source.

I hope when you have some time you'll watch it.
I've just started re-watching it and I think it will answer some of your questions at least.

I am awestruck yet again Putin, about how determinedly you act as an apologist for clearly terrible people and regimes. :P

Apparently you don't buy the western media's descriptions of the amount of desperate inequality, repressiveness, and downright shittiness. Sure. And you know what? They are probably exaggerating. I am sure it is only awful, and the personality cult is only pervasive, not absolute.

But how can you defend the intentions of a regime that provokes attacks and violence in the way North Korea does? The Soviet Union didn't bomb ships without warning or provoking. No responsible state kidnaps people with such gusto that North Korea exhibited when it snatched bunches of South Koreans and even Japanese citizens for obscure or secret reasons. The belligerence and hostility is unprecedented and abhorrent.

The dangers of imperialism, which are real, fade in comparison with the horrors of the North Korean regime and it's destabilizing presence in East Asia.

Would invading North Korea be worse for it's people? Hell yeah. But justifying it's excesses and crimes is just denial of reality.

Oh forgot to add, I have not spoken the words "north korea" or "kim jung anything" at all in my recent memory. Other than this conversation there was my one friend telling me, briefly, about sabre rattling on TV. Thats it. So if this conversation is contributing to anti NK sentiment that is unjustly deserved, that is placed squarely on you. I am asking you to show me what NK is really like, and you come back with , essentially 'shut up imperialist pig, you are hurting the war effort!' maybe you could change my mind with um.... facts? you dont even have to go that far, maybe just a new perspective?

If I was a north korean who was desperate to show the world all the lies about my country, which is actually a pretty ok place, you putin, would be the last person I would want to be 'expressing solidarity'

by the way armchair, solidarity means ACTION

OMG friendly sword!!! you are back!!! I missed you! for things like this!

"Would invading North Korea be worse for it's people? Hell yeah. But justifying it's excesses and crimes is just denial of reality. "

I suspect of course that I will not succeed in changing the mind of the man who has argued that Serbians were the only victims in the wars that devastated Yugoslavia during it's breakup. :/

Ad hominem attack? Yes.
Justified? Yes.

@sicarius:
"You gave me some one link about standard of living. ok thats a start, again you have changed my view of NK with just that. I no longer buy imperialist lies about how dirty/starving/impverished it is. "

Yeah, that's what Putin does. Whenever you post legitimate criticism one of his darling regimes, he will cite you how many calories this regime feeds it people every day. It's always a lot less than in their non-communist counterparts, but it's "enough".

That's because in Putin's fantasy world we're not real, actual people, but more like cows, who are :) when heaving eaten and :( when there is no food. I'd be happy to cut down heavily on my calories if I can criticize idiot communists on the web.

I can assure you, in North Korea, such behavior is not appreciated.

The link doesn't change anything about North Korea. I agree with FS that probably the media is exaggerating, but if even 10% of what we read about various sources (left wing parties don't deny most of it) is true, then the joke state of North Korea is the last place I'd wanna live.

PS ow my, what an achievement of a government to organize a society that can feed its people in 2011. Dang. You must really be a master strategist of a world leader if you can do that.

"
That's because in Putin's fantasy world we're not real, actual people, but more like cows, who are :) when heaving eaten and :( when there is no food. I'd be happy to cut down heavily on my calories if I can criticize idiot communists on the web.
"

Food availability and a governments ability to provide it has been the single greatest cause of social instability throughout world history. It is what builds and crushes empires. Social hierarchy itself has its roots in the control of the food supply. This is what led to greater specialization and the birth of what we now call "civilization". Also humans are animals, and follow all the rules that every animal in the natural world does. So I'm not sure I entirely understand your comment, but it is getting late....?

No it is actually early here. I just woke up, but Putin annoyed me so I decided to comment. What I meant to say is that being able to provide clean water and enough to eat, great as that is, is not exactly the kind of achievement that will get you elected in better-functioning democratic societies. I'm not applauding N-Korea for being able to do something (provide the above) that not only my government does better (by largely leaving market forces to take care of this), but that I hardly consider a government's most important job, which is to protect its people against injustice and war. As for the latter, I believe they are not doing a good job, but I agree that can be subject of debate. As for the former, no comment.

ok thanks for the clarification

PS read up on water privitization in Samerica

i'm against water privatization, should have specified that :)

I'm rather not surprised about the rather blase attitude some here have about getting access to clean water and adequate food (while without batting an eye raising such a fuss about DPRK's supposed "forced starvation" of its own people), and the amazing ability to brag about the fact that the Netherlands does a "better job" at providing food, as if the Netherlands faces the same conditions the DPRK does (like minimal arable land + sanctions & constant threat of invasion). Whatever, any excuse to exhibit chauvinism.

"(by largely leaving market forces to take care of this)"

How are those "market forces" doing in most of the rest of the third world? Or do you somehow think an OECD country and one of the world's wealthiest countries is a good comparative case with formerly colonized third world countries with a half a decade of independent government?

Astounding, the comments being made here.

@Putin,

Yep, there is that. There is also the fact that we have no equivalent of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche

this little thing here.

As for the former colonies, let's take the case of Surinam, a former Dutch colony. They recently elected this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desi_Bouterse

As long as third world countries keep behaving like idiots, I will treat them as such.

This coming from someone who has Geert Wilders propping up his government, and a country that mourned the loss of Pim Fortuyn.

@redhouse, I don't know how to describe how stupid this makes you sound.

'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desi_Bouterse

As long as third world countries keep behaving like idiots, I will treat them as such. '

People are not, by any means, stupid. There is virtually no human culture where being stupid is positively selected for. Humans tend to do what seems like the smart thing - for example in america it seems smart to either vote for a democrat or a republican... it is just the easiest solution which seems like it will succeed.

You clearly think Surinam's people are stupid because you don't understand what is going on in the country which makes them act in the way that they do.

Basically what leads you to conclude that they are stupid is your inability to see things from their perspective. Either through lack of information, or lack of understanding of human behaviour; I don't know, but your clear bias fails you greatly.

@Putin
Obviously, you don't know how our political system works. In the US, two main parties exist, the Republican and Democratic party. Either can have full control over one institution, such as the Presidency, Congress or one of its Houses.
That is because you have district representation. Every district, or state, sends a fixed number of politicians to each institute.
The Netherlands is not federally organized, but has a very strong national government, the provinces have virtually nothing to say. That is why our parliament is chosen nationally, allowing for certain minorities, such as Geert Wilders. I don't support Mr. Wilders, let that be clear.
During the last parliamentary election, the liberal/capitalist party became the number one political party. In our system, this means that they have little choice to supply the Prime Minister and thus participate in the national government, although they are not constitutionally bound to do so.
This party, the VVD, had two serious options of government, a collaboration with left wing and center parties was impossible, because they would unjustly dominate the right wing party, meaning political suicide for the VVD. The second option was a government of national unity, which was a government of the larger Christian democrats, VVD and the Social democrats. Such governments are only formed at times of great crises, which was not the case at the time of the election. The third option was with Wilders. This was also not possible, as Geert Wilder's ideas are horrible and he is too far on the left. That's why they chose to have him "prop up" rather than participate in the government. A very elegant and democratic solution. Allow me to invite you to Holland to teach you how democracy works.
Re: Pim Fortuyn. Yes, we mourn when a political assassination takes place in our peaceful country. Many who didn't agree with him mourned with the rest. You obviously rejoice when a Dutch politician and fellow countryman of mine is murdered. It's good to know that fact about you Putin, thank you for sharing.

@orathaic,
So you think it's a bright idea of the Surinam people to choose a convicted drug dealer and suspected murderer as President?

The reports of this "prison camps" come from the same organization that has lied about many a country before they are bombed, and an organization which has been thoroughly discredited on the issue of its reporting on the DPRK by other respected international organizations like the WHO. So, sorry if I don't fall over myself believing reports about "prison cities" of literally 50,000 people from the likes of Amnesty International, the same organization which was completely humiliated for its sloppy and horrendous "research" on the DPRK healthcare system, which was hailed by the WHO as being the envy of the developing world. All it has are satellite images and accounts from a handful of defectors who claimed to have escaped prison. As we know, the testimony of exiles is always reliable, just ask those relying on the information given by the INC in Iraq.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-10665964

On the incubator story in Iraq

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_n9_v24/ai_12529902/

Seriously - why are you guys bothering?

Do you seriously believe there is a combination of letters that will coalesce into an argument he will accept?

He's a *fanboy*, not a 'communist' in the sense of someone who believes his system is ideal, and has specific changes they would like to make to improve society.

And what is the root of "fan"? *Fanatic* - as in "a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics. "

Just like my wife will continue to root for the Redskins even though they haven't won their division in a decade and been to a superbowl in 20 years, he *likes his ideas*, and he's going to cling to them *no matter what you say*.

The odds are high - and he's never said anything to make me believe otherwise, before I muted his ass - that he's a spoiled rich white boy who has never had to actually strive and sacrifice in his life, but mummy and daddy did something to make him mad, and he started down the "I'm a communist, look at meeee" phase just to piss them off. And then he found the *internet*, where he can be the Internet Tough Guy, fighting the Good Fight against evil capitalists (on his home computer or tablet or smartphone, that don't exist in NK), without having to actually, you know, *do* anything.

Seriously, it's like trying to have a theological conversation with Fred Phelps - what do you really hope to accomplish?

'@orathaic,
So you think it's a bright idea of the Surinam people to choose a convicted drug dealer and suspected murderer as President? '

not being a citizen of Surinam, not knowing the history of the country, or the culture. Never having spoken to a citizen there, or knowing who this 'convicted drug dealer/suspected murderer' is, or how he is viewed by the population or who suspects him of murder or how likely the suspicions are correct, not knowing the circumstances of his supposed drug dealing, whether it was justified or not.

No, i do not make any such claim.

How and ever, unlike you, I do assume that the people of Surinam know better than me what is right for them.

It appears Redhouse still has the colonial mentality that developing countries aren't civilized enough to govern themselves, especially former Dutch colonies. And naturally the Netherlands bears no responsibility for whatever problems in political development persist. The Netherlands is truly a heaven on earth.

Speaking of stupidity:

"This was also not possible, as Geert Wilder's ideas are horrible and he is too far on the left."

This is a joke, or hopefully a mistranslation. Hopefully it's not one of these typical rightwing tactics of accusing every crypto-fascist of being a "leftist". Anyone who lectures about how "democracy works" while making this kind of error has no credibility whatsoever.

"That's why they chose to have him "prop up" rather than participate in the government. A very elegant and democratic solution. Allow me to invite you to Holland to teach you how democracy works."

So after sifting through your condescending screed ( I teach comparative European politics, FYI) we come to the fact that you don't dispute what I said at all, that a far-right lunatic is propping up your government. I love how you find institutional excuses for Wilders popularity but developing countries are slammed for their supposed "stupidity" for electing somebody you don't like.

"The odds are high - and he's never said anything to make me believe otherwise, before I muted his ass "

Odd how someone who "muted my ass" still manages to know what I say and continues to respond to me. Odd how someone who continues to plead to others not to reply to me has to continually talk about me and psychoanalyze me, even making assumptions about class background based on nothing other than a desperate need to find anything whatsoever to dismiss what I say. Your obsession with me is very sad.

'Just like my wife will continue to root for the Redskins even though they haven't won their division in a decade and been to a superbowl in 20 years, he *likes his ideas*, and he's going to cling to them *no matter what you say*.'

I would like to point out, that far from this, there is a tendency among people who have already made up their mind to be more convinced of their convictions in response to opposition arguements. (and this is true of atheists and theists argueing over the existence of God as much as it occurs in politics)

Many opponents are of course on the opposite side and likely ignoring anything Putin says where it clashes with your world-view. Which is caused by the same natural human behaviour, we argue not to prove ourselves right, we argue to exert dominance over other humans...

@orathaic: although I am not revealing much of my identity on this forum, as a Dutch national (a country with a large Surinam minority, most of them actually Dutch nationals) and the fact that the history of Surinam, being connected to Dutch history and the country being well-reported in Dutch newspapers I know it a bit, so I think the fact that they chose this drug-dealer/murderer does not say good things about the people of Surinam (although many other things do).
Putin, regarding the left/right confusion: Geert Wilders is economically on the /left/. He is against raising the retirement age (one of the first things this government pushed through to teach him his place, how very effective) and liberalization of the economy. He is also anti-immigration, which, if you want to simplify politics, you can assign to the right wing, but for me this guy is way too much on the left. I'm not joking, it's not lost in translation.
Wilders is not a lunatic, he is someone I extremely, extremely disagree with, both in style as in content, but that doesn't make him a lunatic. He sometimes brings up interesting points that other politicians don't. Seriously, he does that, ask the other Dutch around. But anyway, I'm never voting for a guy like that, don't worry.

@Putin33: Re colonial mentality.
1) Ad hominem comment, of course, no problem, they say more about you than about me.
2) Indonesia seems to be doing fine, so that's where your argument goes wrong :(

"But how can you defend the intentions of a regime that provokes attacks and violence in the way North Korea does? The Soviet Union didn't bomb ships without warning or provoking"

Neither did the DPRK. See, this is the problem. Even when the enemies of DPRK *admit* to have fired first and act provocatively, you still repeat the misinformation.

See this report from an anti-DPRK site.

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=22066

"As AP notes:

The skirmish began when Pyongyang [i.e. North Korea] warned the South to halt military drills in the area, according to South Korean officials. When Seoul [i.e. South Korea] refused and began firing artillery into disputed waters, albeit away from the North Korean shore, the North retaliated by bombarding the small island of Yeonpyeong, which houses South Korean military installations."

http://gowans.wordpress.com/2010/11/24/wrong-country-blamed-for-artillery-exchange-on-korean-peninsula/

Here's a report on the development of the lies about the Choenan incident

http://links.org.au/node/1871

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/23/world/la-fg-korea-torpedo-20100724

In November of 2009, a DPRK ship was engulfed in flames due to a South Korean attack. No word of protest from the western media. Indeed, they blamed it on the DPRK, as per usual.

Indonesia doing just fine? Yeah, no thanks to Dutch misrule. Seriously, 500,000 Communists slaughtered by the Suharto regime, an independent country left in ruins after the Dutch left and you think Indonesia is a Dutch success story?

Colonial mentality is not ad hominem, it's an apt description if you think Indonesia's development has been a smooth ride. Or maybe the lives of leftists are worth little, that could be it.