@DL - you're right, I should have said 3/13. And I don't know how many times I need to repeat that I'm not hoping for a lynch on the first day. Voting for a lynch is not the same as lynching someone.

@Yoyo & bo - I don't really think there is a good case against Espi. I think that Espi, like myself, is used to playing in a different community that treats the game in a different way. I agree with Yoyo's latest assessment of Espi, though I wouldn't say "stupid" so much as different. His playstyle might work much better in the context in which he's used to playing.

Player List/Votes
1. - Espi (No vote)
2. - guak (bo 4)
3. - TrPrado (phil 1, DL 2, guak 4, unvote guak 7, bo 7, slacker 9)
4. - phil_a_s (Yoyo 1, Espi 3)
5. - ND (DL 1, unvote DL 4)
6. - bo_sox48 (Espi 9)
7. - Yoyoyozo (Jeff 3, Balki 5, SS 8)
8. - DeathLlama9 (bo 4, SS 7, unvote SS 8)
9. - americaslacker (No vote, inactive)
10. - Jeff Kuta (Espi 2, bo 3, Tr 10)
11. - SaladinSmith (Jeff 6)
12. - Balki Bartokomous (Espi 8)
13. - Lucland (guak 10)


Page 1:
DL, ND, phil, Tr, yoyo and I are the main posters on this page, which is mostly joking. Yoyo mentions needing 45 minutes before he cooks dinner (this is at 6:12, he later is posting at 7:08 but leaves at 7:14). DL tries to guide the conversation away from joke posting and phil casts the first vote on Yoyo which leads to ND with a DL vote and Tr with a phil vote. I mention the cop revealing and ND, DL and phil quickly inform me that there isn't a question about the cop revealing although DL does say fakeclaiming might have merit. phil also is the second to outright claim town, and yoyo is asking the GM what I see to be simple questions.

Question to Balki, I mentioned Wjessop losing the game last Mafia based on a mistimed kill, thus bringing up my wanting to discuss the cop. You did not mention this, which is the first item that was cut out of my quotes posts so far. What lead you to ignore this first part and then assume I was uncertain?

Overall the first page doesn't have a lot of information, that can be seen yet anyway. I wonder about the names that lead the conversation to begin with. I am assuming a few things right now, the mafia will have 1 person lurking, 1 person jumping on bandwagons and 1 person trying to lead a discussion and become a 'town read'. Please let me know if this guess is off base. I am also assuming one of the leaders in the Mafia is also on the first page, this could very easily be wrong, or all 3 of the Mafia could be on the first page. Time will tell, I hope.

Page 2:
The same players are on this page, and there is some slight discussion of Mafia to Town odds, the cops revealing, and why you shouldn't lock in a vote so early on. Tr switches from phil to DL after only a few posts when he reaffirmed that he thought phil was lying, this is likely still joke mode but slightly worries me. I mention a joke tracker but no one comments on this. More joke posting and Jeff begins his vote on me. DL seems to start guiding the direction of this page, by asking somewhat more serious questions while also joking. Not too sure how to read this page.

Page 3:
I bring up the 5th post that bo brings up later, but with a :) which I hope comes across as following the joking. Just to be clear, this was a joke, I noticed that it was going to be my 5th post and thought I might remark on it. Jeff mentions something about promising the community not to play his standard role, there isn't that much comment on this aside from guak saying please don't, can someone explain the history on this more to me? Jeff switches his vote from me to bo, Yoyo votes Jeff, and phil switches his vote from Yoyo to me. phil continues to only joke around while others are beginning to become more serious, is this normal for phil? ND is seeking clarifications, Tr is sort of in the background giving some advice and commenting on the flow so far, DL does begin to try and get on a positive track and only slightly votes. Balki makes a large introduction and Yoyo wonders why I am taking a few minutes to get back to him. Jeff continues to attack lurkers which I saw Wjessop do last game when he was Mafia, and which sticks out to me as suspicious. Why spend your time on lurkers when there are actual posts going on with info? Jeff and guak also state as things to know about the game that yoyo is always scummy. guak specifically mentions Jeff and phil in his posts, any reason in particular for that guak?

Page 4:
Tr points out the 2 scum claims on Yoyo by saying Yoyo doesn't seem scummy yet. ND mentions that guak is posting early which isn't normal apparently. Tr also begins to heavily question my own posts, with ND and DL jumping aboard. DL switches between me and phil in his questions. guak jumps on the voting bo train. Jeff protests my not voting early and also brings up the bo wagon happening. Yoyo also tries to convince me to vote earlier. Tr switches votes again from phil to DL to guak. DL makes a joke claim about being cop and scanning bo as a mafia and hops on the bo wagon as well. Balki tries to stop random voting and DL immediately unvotes bo. I am seeing ND and Tr working closely together so far, with Balki being a third party, and phil and DL being at slight odds. As a point yoyo said he would be going to cook dinner and this page is about the time he said he would be gone by. ND unvotes from DL.

Page 5:
Yoyo is still on, after his 45 minutes before he goes to cook, and votes for Balki. I mention my leaning toward trusting Jeff, Yoyo, Balki and ND which I am going to change back to Null at this point. Balki continues about not randomly voting while DL says all he is doing now is randomly voting, Yoyo leaves to cook dinner. DL mentions Yoyo not seeming scummy which makes his scummy but is also not a good reason to suspect. Tr mentions guak coming in, posting a bit then leaving which I find to be a very good point. DL comments on jokeposting more, then after saying earlier his posts are short as he can't contribute a lot this early on (he made similar points earlier) he comments about my not contributing. Jeff mentions guak having a point on bo thus Jeff staying on bo, but also ignores the others who have commented on bo so far.

Page 6:
guak comes back in for a bit and mentions Jeff possibly buddying up to him. DL continues to pressure me to hunt scum and yet has said before that he doesn't have enough info to hunt scum, can I get a clarification on this DL? guak states that we should all be paranoid (honest statement or trying to confuse us?) Jeff states that guak copied his voting on bo and not the other way around, but guak focuses on Jeff trying to schmooze him and Tr later mentions that he doesn't see Jeff doing this. DL jumps off at this point. phil mentions guak usually taking a while to start and guak mentions that he knows what he is doing, although confirms that he is still bored which is why he isn't lurking yet. Bo appears to be online now but doesn't post which worries a few people, mostly Tr. SS comes on and votes Jeff but Tr points out that his first post doesn't contribute much. As this was SS's first post, Tr how did you expect him to contribute, his post was like a lot of our first posts.

Page 7:
Tr unvotes guak but then votes for bo after questioning guak on persisting so heavily on Bo. I wonder at this move as he ignores the rest of the bo train, I see guak as mostly being pressured to explain why he is on the bo train by Tr. Tr points out that Lucland, bo and slacker are the only ones who haven't posted yet. Lucland said he would be late and slacker hadn't been online yet (bo later mentions that he had posted saying he would be late but I don't recall this). DL switches to SS and continues to go after people he says aren't contributing, but I don't see him doing much more contribution, he also mentions that most people are gathering info for later after already saying most of this stuff was useless for now, although you do mention wanting more information in particular about me so that might be a redeeming factor. Why is that DL? Jeff states his annoyance with bo. phil gets off for now.

Page 8:
Jeff checks out for now. SS mentions seeing no other votes on Jeff when Jeff was voted back on page 3, although Yoyo switched that vote to Balki on 5 so his comment on no votes is understandable. Although why Jeff, there are a few others who don't have votes on them yet SS.

As a note, ghug posts "DAY ONE VOTE COUNT 1.5:
bo_sox48 (3): Jeff Kuta, guak, TrPrado
Espi (1): phil_a_s
Balki Bartokomous (1): Yoyoyozo
Jeff Kuta (1): SaladinSmith
SaladinSmith (1): DeathLlama9

Unvoted: ND
No Vote: Espi, bo_sox48, americaslacker, Balki Bartokomous, Lucland

Currently BO_SOX48 is set to be lynched. The day ends in 45 hours."

DL tries to probe people for more info on who they think is scum. Tr posts the first actual read but not a lot of people comment on it. DL is worries that Trs Town reads are only based on contribution. Tr continues to ask why the bo wagon is happening, well more in point, why guak has only given a joke reason for being on the wagon while he agrees with Jeffs reason as trying to pressure bo to talk. DL unvotes SS, and Yoyo comes back jumping in with Balki to vote SS, but doesn't feel that I am contributing at all (understandable). DL focuses on the topic of Lynching again. Balki makes an analysis of me and votes for me and wants me to convince him that I am not town. I really hope that Balki is town, because I am liking him so far.

Page 9:
Yoyo says he thinks I am town right after Balki posts a very good reason for me not to be town, but doesn't really think I am scum. He believes I am a clueless townie. Both perceptions have their merits, but if you think I am a clueless townie, why aren't you trying to counter Balkis points more, helping the clueless townie is more of a Town benefit then just saying I could be slight town. Others have tried to help me early on, so this action of yours confuses me. There is still little actual comment on Tr and BB's analysis. Tr probes into phil a bit more.

Answer to ND: This is my findings so far, or the majority of them anyway. I have a few more things I am going to be working on but I still have time to look back over the posts more. When I mentioned not putting time into my posts, I meant not being as clear and concise as I could be. A lot of that is my wanting to focus on the big picture instead of just trying to defend myself. I think I can redeem myself later on, when a lot of my reasons can hopefully become more justifiable. I am trying to make myself a target to see how people respond. A lot of my analysis of the game is how people are responding to my making myself a target, as I have said before. Maybe this is dumb, or maybe it works, as I am new to the game I feel I can afford some recklessness in order to see if a theory of mine is correct. I am scumhuting and feel that my acting more scummy now, leads to a discussion which can provide more information on others. If you would like for me to stop now, I will sit back and work more on reading posts instead of responding to them, but I feel that might be more of a scum tell then anything else. Also ND, DL and I were thinking BB was like Wjessop, not Sali. Honestly now I can't recall why I made that point, aside from it reminded me of Wjessop managing to act as Town until the very end of the last 2 games.

ND goes onto questioning a lot of things that don't add up to him and made some very good points. Jeff and Balki point out my scummyness, but Yoyo still doesn't seem to think I am scummy, although Jeff finds my response to Balki to be a defense when it was very clearly a poor response to his well thought out questions. Another reason I like being the target is I know, more or less, what I am trying to do with my posts. Reading how people respond to my posts is easier then reading how they respond to someone else. I know how poorly my response was, and Balki thought so to, why did you think that just means I could be a clueless townie? Although it is somewhat understandable that you wish to focus on bo, as he is not on and as you think I could be scum, why aren't you pressuring me more? SS responds to some questions and heads off. Yoyo also jumps onto my having a terrible response to BB's questions.

bo comes on and responds to those who have been messaging him. I feel the same way as you do about my defense, I did an okay job at it but only an ok job, do you agree with Jeff on his thoughts about my response, or do you lean more toward agreeing with Yoyo and BB that my defense was really poor? You seem to be leaning toward Jeff by thinking I atleast had some good material in there (which would mean I am more coherent then I feel I am coming across as, which might be good) Also I think I responded to the rest of your question earlier on. I am a new player, so my trying to dig up as much info as I can for the more experienced players to look back on might help. Please let me know if you think I am really wrong on this point. As I don't think I will be a Day 1 lynch and only worry about a night kill, which wouldn't be the best Mafia move, I think I am safe for the first 2 days anyway. Also thanks for your questioning SS on the poor response to me, that is what I was hoping for. I feel bo does a very good job of catching up. Tr votes for slacker, which means that Tr has been the one voting the most for the least reasons. It is page 9, there is a lot of material to go through, and you are still voting for people who aren't on, why? bo votes for me.

DL once again is waiting for more info on me and questions BB on some of his questions to me.

Page 10:
Tr heads off. Bo mentions my 5th post which I mentioned earlier. Lucland comes on finally and makes some quick responses but says little. Guak mentions my fear about BB putting a lot of effort into appearing town, but for some reason I still think BB is town. Jeff votes Tr with my point about switching votes a lot. bo mentions it is dumb to pressure people who haven't shown up yet, and questions Lucland and Jeff on their opinions.

Lucland, what leads you to like me, and think that I have been playing a good game so far? Many people, including myself, do not feel this way. Why do you think that bo is a joke when he has done a nice job so far in his limited time on? BB, I agree with your opinion on me and that sharing reads, thank you for that. You still worry me as trying to hard but I find myself wanting to think you are a Town. One thing I disagree with, you mention my claiming town early on is a mafia tell, while I see how, my intention once again is for people who think I am scum to be able to re-read my posts and see where I am coming from. I knew back then that I would likely appear as scum early on, I usually do, so I wanted to make sure people knew who I really am. Obviously I am doing a poor job of convincing you on this, but I hope my later game shows you that I am sincere. For background, I am 20, making my way through college, have played 3 partial games of diplomacy FTF prior to November of 2014, after that I joined webDip and played 1 or 2 games a month until earlier this year when I really became active. In Mafia I have played 2 partial RL games as well as 5 or so board game versions of Mafia. Most of my games IRL have been at the local University Gamers Club. Also BB, you quotes a vote on bo, I am not sure if that might accidentally be registered as you voting.

phil also sees BB's strong case on me, and I am curious as to how you see this response I am making. This is my answer to you btw. Tr admits to not having really read BB's case on me, but after reading it agrees with Yoyo. Yoyo says he wants to stop fooling around (what took you so long) and only does so by clarifying a point to BB. Tr, is giving me the benefit of the doubt wise? If I am scum then you get rid of me, if I am Town then you have 9 or 8 left at the end of the day. Also phil, why are you calling certain reads lame, and not seeing the benefit of doing early reads?

Summary:

Sorry for the scattered material above, I was going through each page while as work and typing down my thoughts while also working. This is my first real analysis and although it isn't that good of a job, I did pose some questions and hope this shows you how I am thinking for now. Please ask me for clarification and I would appreciate advice for how to go about later reads.

As a point, I don't think I will be lynched on day 1 as there are other, more experienced targets that I imagine people will think are scum, and if the Mafia kills me on night 1, they won't be able to use my inexperience against me end game which could be to their benefit. But I could be wrong.

Espi, my townclaim was making fun of yours, and I did not in fact mention my role, nor will I. I never called any reads lame as far as I remember - I signed off before any reads posts turned up, and didn't bother reacting to any today. The problem with early reads is that they tend to be pointless this early. They're useful later on, so that you don't forget someone is playing, and are good at night as a last words type thing. Early, though, it's going to be a NULL-fest.

As for your analysis, it looks more like a summary than anything else, and is a bit disorganized. I recommend having a thing at the end of just questions, for one, and not putting them inside the summary itself. Analysis would also be best placed at least slightly separate from the summary.

it was your "Yeah, it would help to explain why certain reads are lame, if they are, because of all the newbies." comment which looking back looks more directed toward Tr questioning guak. Will do next time on the actual format. I will be going back over this later but wanted to post it before I forgot, sorry about that. A wall of text is never fun to read.

Espi asked why I voted for Jeff, when somebody had already voted for Jeff, and there were people who hadn't been voted for at all. Well, as I pointed out earlier, I hadn't yet read the entire thread at that point. I skimmed through it on my phone and didn't see the vote for Jeff. I think I arbitrarily picked a name from the first page, and then someone else voted for that person later on, so I picked another arbitrary name (Jeff) without checking very thoroughly to see if anyone else had voted for that person earlier. Someone may have posted a list of votes at that point, and Jeff's name wasn't on the list. I don't really remember, and I'm not going to read through six pages just to back this story up.

Incidentally, I remember someone commenting earlier that my post was way too long for a phone post on a date with my girlfriend. I know nobody really took that seriously, but I felt I should back it up anyway, in case it comes up later. My girlfriend has been living with me for a little over a year now, so this isn't any sort of romantic dinner date -- more of she just got off work and felt like Mexican food instead of having to go home and cook.

Also, I used to have a blog where I posted at least 1000 words a day, often written from my phone when I was at work. In those days, my phone was a Samsung Stratosphere, with an actual hardware keyboard. Now I have a Samsung Galaxy S4, which does not have a hardware keyboard, and thus is significantly harder to type on.

But I should really be getting to work like half an hour ago. See you all!

@Lucland

If you had to slap labels on people right now, where could you see our scum residing.
for future reference, can you avoid words like 'like' and use words more akin to 'town' or 'scum'

@Espi
Trust me, those aren't good reasons at all to lynch someone, there are more holes in that argument than swiss cheese, but they are for you to figure out. I'm not your lawyer. It's not my job to shoot down every case against those I think are town, you have to learn to properly defend yourself. All I said what that you could be a little lost to how things are done on this site. Sorry for putting it blunty and for lack of a better word, I used stupid, which I also apologize for.

No worries Yoyo, it was a question I had so I asked it. I see your viewpoint but wanted to make sure I was correct on that and it wasn't for another reason. No need to apologize.

0_o

I've read it, but no time to reply in depth. I will say, as a "newbie" to webdip and online posting, the contempt for newbies is palpable. Frankly, I'd like more information on your relationships. Sorry, I can't be more help. I'm off to work and will be back later.

I certainly hope there's no contempt here. I think it's just a matter of starting to use the same vocabulary and then we'll be fine. As for relationships, well, maybe we can get another guak-style summary?

@SaladinSmith: " I hadn't yet read the entire thread at that point."
-Have you read the whole thread yet?-
@Lucland: ", the contempt for newbies is palpable. Frankly, I'd like more information on your relationships. "
-Where are you feeling contempt? What relationships, who are you referring too?

@Espi: I have read through your summary and one of my questions is what does this summary tell you? Who do you think is scum, town, null? Can we expect something later with that information or are we to infer from your summary of the game so far who your suspects may be?

1. - Espi - doing a poor job but town. Isn't this normal to claim?
2. - guak - not sure why he isn't posting as much as I am told he is fairly good, but others have explained this, slight scum.
3. - TrPrado - leading the conversation so far with you ND, I worry about the 2 of you both being scum but am enjoying his analysis so far, slight town.
4. - phil_a_s - I don't really understand where the majority of your claims are coming from, and I feel that you contradict yourself almost as much as I do, slight scum.
5. - ND -I really really want you to be down, please be town.
6. - bo_sox48 - Came in late but had some nice thoughts. Could be a lurking scum, or could be skilled town. I am going to say slight town.
7. - Yoyoyozo - I like a lot of the points that you make, but also feel that you aren't being that proactive and are mostly reacting to others comments toward you, slight scum.
8. - DeathLlama9 - You have been leading a lot of conversations while not really saying a lot, at least that is how I feel, slight scum.
9. - americaslacker - No info available, null.
10. - Jeff Kuta - I enjoy the points that you make, and think that you could be a good town asset. I don't fully trust you yet but slight town.
11. - SaladinSmith - Arrived late, made some points but hasn't contributed a lot yet, null.
12. - Balki Bartokomous - I also hope that you are town. You could be scum trying to become the main town leader, or you could just be playing yourself making reads. Keep it up, if you are town anyway.
13. - Lucland - Hasn't said a lot yet either, still new, null.

Claiming you're town says nothing, which is fine in, say, a reads post, like you're doing. Personally I usually leave myself out of mine, but it's a matter of personal choice. Claiming a specific role, even Vanilla Townie, is less fine, since in theory it gives mafia some of the very little information they don't have.

I have seen a few people keep themselves in their read post so thought I might as well do the same :)

Lol phil's half kidding. He doesn't want you to turn into Jeff Kuta with your reads, constantly claiming town with the same catchphrase and everything.

@ND - Yes, I've read through the whole thread now.

@Town,

I suggest you take a close read of Yoyo’s post at the bottom of page 10, and consider it an example of how to be unhelpful to town. I’d like us all to strive to do much better than this.

First, Yoyo says “No one should be lynched for being stupid, and there's a clear distinction between scummy behavior and clueless behavior.”

I disagree vehemently that this distinction is clear. I believe that because mafia are faking their involvement in town, and faking their scumhunt, that they are more much more likely to manufacture faulty arguments and say things they do not believe. A classic example is a “dumbtell,” in which they pretend not to understand a basic mechanic of the game. A player who has experience, who asks questions that they obviously know the answer to, with feigned sincerity, is more likely to be mafia than someone who doesn’t do this.

I’ll also note that I don’t think Espi is particularly new or inexperienced. For example, he explained away his own dumbtell (EXHIBIT 3 from my post at page 8) by saying “On the small chance that one of the newbies is the Cop, we might as well give them some tips.” And he brings up ideas such as wjessops play in multiple past games, which makes very clear that he’s read through mafia threads on this site and knows how it works.

There, I’ve just explained the reasoning behind pointing out Espi’s dumbtells. When our town asserts something as truth, please back it up with reasoning, unless it is completely obvious. Yoyo’s assertion was not obvious, and I think it was flatly false.

Then Yoy says: “I’m saying to allow him time to adjust, this is a learning game, isn't it. He seems to at least be trying, so I'll give him that.”

I also appreciate that he’s trying, but it seems to me counterproductive to use “this is a learning game, isn’t it?” Does that mean we shouldn’t look for, and point out, mafia-indicative behavior? I agree with Yoyo that we have to calibrate our reads to account for different experience levels, but I’ve certainly attempted to do that in my analysis on Espi, and I explained reasons why I lean towards him being mafia over him being clueless townie. Yoyo has not addressed those reasons; he ignored them and dismissed them. Perhaps we will have our best chance of catching mafia before they’ve had a chance to adjust.

Then Yoyo says: “If more alignment indicative behavior is exhibited by him, We'll revisit. But almost everything you said points to either mafia or misguided town, which means none of his behavior is actually alignment indicative.”

This is not just a waste of space, it is counterproductive. Yoyo latches on to a point I made myself that some of the evidence could indicate misguided town, but he ignored the points I made about the additional evidence that is inconsistent with misguided town. Yoyo’s comment serves no purpose other than to be dismissive of my arguments, without engaging them on the merits.

Then Yoyo says: “In other words ‘Ive, seen scum, and he ain’t no scum, at least not now’”

Here, Yoyo offers his own “I’ll know it when I see it” scumhunting tool. This is a terrible tool. I hope that this town is not going to follow along and take Yoyo’s word for it when he declares someone to be scum or not. I hope that this town is going to make and respond to cogent analysis backed by specific evidence. That way we will be able to distinguish between the sincere scumhunt, and the manufactured scumhunt.

Yoyo has moved squarely onto my radar screen, and I hope he shifts from assertions to analysis for the good of the town.

On my phone and doing chores, so just a skim of the page. Jeff, I'll get back to you. Espi, I'm definitely finding your reads a little off. For example, I wouldn't say ND is leading the conversation as much as DL, who says more important and good stuff than you seem to realize. More to come.

BB, look on my page 1 summary, and look back to Yoyos first post, this is something he has done before, " A player who has experience, who asks questions that they obviously know the answer to, with feigned sincerity, is more likely to be mafia than someone who doesn’t do this."

And in my defense, I have skimmed the first day or 2 posts for the last 2 mafia threads, skimmed through the god threads and mafia threads, and skimmed through the last day or 2 posts. I know a bit about the game but this is my first time putting everything into practice, and I have missed the middle game portions of those games. Keep on going BB, I once again say that I hope you are Town because I enjoy your analysis.

Hey now!

Give me a little more credit than that. I claimed my vanilla-ness is as many posts as I could!

Jeff, you just missed another chance to claim it. Why are you missing this chance right now?

I perhaps should have clarified that my whole schtick in two previous mafia games here was to sign off nearly every post with "Vanilla townie. 100% guaranteed!" which drove most people to insanity and ultimately ended up with my innocent self getting lynched. So, I promised I wouldn't do that ever again.

I am *trying* to do that, but some people keep bringing it up. Last explanation of it for me. Promise!

@Jeff … it was more that I wanted to get something out of you since I don't have a whole lot of info, hence your null read. If you would rather me reread you, I can, but I prefer asking my own questions to clarify my null reads.

@Lucland … what's your case against guak?

@Balki … fair response. While I agree that DL was doing that, though, I don't see why you only pointed him out. Others did the same thing. TrPrado, in particular, stands out as someone else that did that. Why not point him out? Phil did as well. I'm just not getting what made DL so special and why he was the only one worth targeting over an issue that at least two more players had. Now Yoyo is doing the same thing (again) - you gonna call him out?

@Espi … why are you buddying me dude? Also, please give me an idea of why you thought you could get away with quitting the day after five posts. Obviously, you can't, and obviously, you didn't, but why did it even cross your mind?

@Yoyo, Tr, SS … I don't get why you all are trying to take the pressure off of Espi when we're nowhere near crunch time. You don't have to think he's a good lynch, but if you're genuinely concerned about helping out a dumb townie and thereby helping the town, you're doing a fucking terrible job by letting him off on his slips. Read him how you like but you don't back off right now.

@SS … I just noticed this line:

"Of course now that I've pointed that out, it's possible that Jeff could kill me and nobody would ever suspect him because I pointed out that it can't possibly be him. And that puts us into a Vizzini-Princess-Bride sort of situation where nothing I've said has any meaning."

Can you explain that in more detail? I don't think you meant to say that we should ignore everything you had said in that post, but that's how it reads to me. If so, that's really dismissive and I'd appreciate if you would clear that up.

@Balki

When I said that this is a learning game, I did not mean give everyone freebies on the first day. I was refering to how this game has a higher concentration of newbies than previous games, and that this should be taken into account. We just can't place every single clueless person under suspicion because if the mafia are the experienced players, we've just given them several day to coast from.

If you would like me to engage your points directly and specifically, I can do that. I just wanted to see how espi would react, and frankly he put a terrible defense. It was mostly "I'm sorry about this, my bad about that. I have no response to this." Still i think this is coming from a townie who doesnt know any better. Nonetheless I still don't think it's a good case to begin with, which is why I don't find him scummy.

It's been a while since something good happened so allow me to rekindle the flame. I'll address your case point by point and why it doesn't hold water. It's a great start, especially for start discussion, which is why I'll be developing an antithesis for further conversation.

I see DL saying a lot while also not saying much at all, ND hasn't said as much but his posts do have content and seem to benefit the Town. DL also gets caught up on more trivial matters, posting here and there (several times a page) without really making any good points. ND says more in his main post on page 9 then I have seen from DL all game. Maybe I am wrong and DL just has his own style, but I think he might be scum trying to blend in by posting a lot. Can you share with me some of the posts DL has made, that stick out? He has been the one posting the most out of all of us so far. Also, when did I say ND was leading the conversation more then DL? Tr, BB and bo are the ones I see leading most of the conversation. DL chimes in every now and then but doesn't maintain a single train of thought.

Jeff, that's bullshit. It's stupid, but it didn't get you lynched. You got lynched because you were incapable of providing any sort of decent reads of giving us any info on your reads, and even when your reads were right, they were made with so unconvincingly that it didn't even matter.

@Balki ... Ignore that Yoyo thing, we x-posted.

How am I buddying you bo? Also I said above a few times that the 5 posts was a joke.

Apologies, then.

Lines like these, Espi, are where I feel like you're buddying, and I don't feel like I'm the only one you're buddying up to upon a reread of your big post:

"I feel bo does a very good job of catching up."

Matches your read, so this doesn't bother me nearly as much as...

"Why do you think that bo is a joke when he has done a nice job so far in his limited time on?"

Thanks for the compliment, but it's completely unnecessary. Moreover, you're trying to answer the question that you just asked for Lucland - you're leading him a certain way, which doesn't help the town at all. Cut the last two-thirds of that sentence out and you have a decent question, but when you lead him on and buddy at the same time, it's scummy as hell.

I'm glad you're able to summarize what's happened so far, by the way. I don't get the purpose of that, especially since you claim that that summary is "analysis" and that you are actively questioning people, when as a matter of fact the majority of that post is filler to make it look longer. You asked a fair amount of questions, but the majority of them are useless or provide no information at all. One example that sticks out to me:

"As this was SS's first post, Tr how did you expect him to contribute, his post was like a lot of our first posts."

Is a first post an excuse not to contribute? Also, his first post was far different than yours because it was far later. There was more to go off of. Every post that you make should have some sort of moderate contribution, even if it's minor and especially if it's your first post the whole time - you haven't said anything yet, so you should have a world of things to choose from.

Now, I haven't recently read SS's post, so I don't know how it actually went, but the question you asked is just pointless. It absolutely doesn't "(show) you how I am thinking for now" at all. It's just a summary with questions scattered in because, well, you have no choice but to ask a few questions.

This is the kind of filler that idiot mafia think makes themselves look better. It's a lot of letters and words, so it must be substantial. That's not how it works. My vote's on you until you can return some actual analysis and until you can do so without using the fact that you're new to excuse the fact that you haven't been "as clear and concise as I could be," which is ironic considering your post took up six nearly pages on Microsoft Word single-spaced and said nothing in that entire time.

"Wow, this is much busier than where I usually play. Should have no trouble posting five times a day. I think it's important yup vote to kill on the first day. The more people who vote to abstain, the less information we have. Of course we have no real information the first day, so my vote is effectively random, but I'll say [redacted]VOTE Jeff.

Jeff is mafia. This is the truth! This is my belief! ...At least for now."

to which Tr says "Glad to see SS has made an appearance. Though, his first post is mostly reiterated stuff and a bit of a joke vote."