If any of the other Christians on this site want to give Bible references for the above, that would be great--I have to scoot off to work now but will check back later.

No, Mujus. You are basically the only one who is interested in proselytizing this particular community even though we have repeatedly ask you not to but we are decent enough to let you talk to yourself on your daily thread where the last 12 posts have all been yours.

I defended your right to post your daily quotes and I still posit that it should be one's right to do so as long as the messages are not a constant stream of hateful crap.

However, let me say this: you are, by far, one of the most inconsiderate Christians that I have come across. Let's make this clear: you are not going to convert anyone on the site, you are not going to save any souls, you are not doing a service to this community, and your constant drivel only serves to drive people away from Christianity and religion. I do not know how to make that anymore transparent.

If you think you are doing good here, you are delusional. I think you need to spend some quiet time to contemplate your actions and whether they are driven by wisdom or arrogance or a need to feel like you are a productive, respected, or honorable member of some community. From my perspective, your daily messages only serve to fuel your ego as I do not see any enlightenment.

Pride is the most insidious sin of them all.

Jesus died for our sins, so you don't have to! Buy your bible now!

Well, as much as I would rather not do this, I feel the need to clarify quite a few of the above points.

"1. God created people to have fellowship with Him through our own free will."

First, God created the world and everything in it. He said it was good. Very good. God creating people is a part of a bigger story of God creating the entire world to honor and glorify him. Mujus' point is fine, but the Bible tells a bigger story. (Gen. 1-2)

"2. People chose (and still choose) to break that fellowship with him by sinning, which just means doing wrong things, and that path leads to death."

Sin is not "doing the wrong things." Sin is any way of life that dishonors God. "Doing wrong things" is part of that, but sin entail much more. Wrong thoughts, wrong motives etc. Sin is anything that misses the mark of God's original intent at creation. This includes sins of co-mission as well as sins of o-mission (things we do, as well as things we fail to do). Again, Mujus isn't word per se, just missing the bigger picture. (Gen. 3 and then onto Rom. 1:18-3:20)

"3. God made a plan to give people the chance to restore that broken fellowship with God.
4. God instituted a system of incredibly demanding rules and animal sacrifice, the Old Testament Law, to teach us that 1) No one can comply perfectly with the Law, and 2) That payment must be made--sin leads to death. "

This is off for a bunch of reasons.
God did make a plan to restore the whole created world (again, not just people and their broken fellowship), and that plan was to be carried out by Israel. He chose Israel to be the light of the world. God chose Abraham to be blessed, and TO bless (Gen. 12). The law was then instituted to deal with sin. Take it from NT Wright, - “The covenant between God and Israel was established in the first place in order to deal with the problem of the world as a whole. Or, one rabbi put it, God decided to make Adam first, knowing that if he went to the bad God would send Abraham to sort things out. The covenant, in other words, was established so that the creator God could rescue the creation from evil, corruption, and disintegration and in particular could rescue humans from sin and death.”

And sin leading to death is obvious from a reading of Gen. 3. We didn't need the law for that.

"5. God himself paid for the sins of the whole world when he came down to Earth as the baby Jesus, the promised Messiah of Israel, who did miracles, taught repentance of sins and said flat-out that He was the way, the truth and the life, and that no one could come to God the Father except through believing in Him."

The Covenant was broken by Israel. They failed to bless the world. They were in exile, yet hanging onto the hope of God's promises to one day renew all the created order. They awaited a Messiah, the one that would make all things right.
They got Jesus, who burst onto the scene preaching that the kingdom of God had indeed come--the one the Israelites have been waiting for is finally here--and the world can now be made new. (As an aside, it is this paradox - that the world indeed isn't fully perfect and restored that keeps Jews from embracing Christianity). Part of Jesus making all things new is throwing himself on evil. In the words of Albert Schweitzer, Jesus saw the evil of the world spinning like a wheel out of control. Exhausted of options, he threw himself onto it. And it did indeed stop.
This "throwing himself on the evil of the world" includes what Mujus is talking about--payment for sins. It's best though to frame it in the larger framework lest we become narcissistic westerners.

"6. The payment has been made, but to access it, you need to confess that you are a sinner and accept Jesus' payment for your sins."

I would rephrase this. Evil has been conquered. The victory has been won. We are now between D-day and VE-day. The war is over, but the battles still rage.
Thus, to be a part of God's family, one must swear allegiance to the rightful king, the only one with the authority and power to conquer evil once and for all. This includes confession as well as acceptance of Jesus' payment. But this is no financial transaction. To be a member of God's victorious family, one must find the king.

"7. That's the beginning of a wonderful life in which God gradually changes us to be more like him, morally, as we hand him control of the various areas of our lives--which for most people takes a lifetime, although I know some people who changed certain aspects of their lives immediately."

This is the beginning of a wonderful new WORLD, not just life. Christianity has always been about changing the world. Yes, change people from the inside out, but more as well. Once you become a member of God's family you are given the Holy Spirit. Through the Spirit (who is God himself), and our dependence on him, we will become sanctified (become more like God). We are now in the Spirit-age, the time when God rules the world as the king through the Holy Spirit.

"8. You don't need to belong to any particular organization or follow any specific form of worship, but the Bible is a great manual/handbook for living your life with God. Sure, some parts are very hard to understand, but if you pray for understanding, you will get it."

The Bible is not a manual nor a handbook. It is a story. A grand narrative about a God that wants to set the world right. About a God that wrote himself into the story to redeem all of creation, and that includes each of us. Read the story. Throw yourself into the story. Then pick up your cross, and continue the story into the 21st century.

So much more to say, but we'll leave it there. I'll poke in here every now and then to see how things are going.

Matter of fact, Orion, if you're seriously interested just go buy "Simply Christian" by NT Wright.

@zultar - why so hostile in *this* thread towards Mujus? A question was asked. Mujus answered it honestly, sincerelty, and pretty accurately where general Christian dogma is concerned. This is n't his thread and he isn't trying to recruit anyone, just answering the OP's question.

@bartdogg - One further clarification on sin.

Sin isn't just doing bad, as you so point out. And it isn't just doing things that dishonour God. The even bigger picture is sin is anythign that puts a divide between us and God. What is sin for one may not be sin for another. Because sin is in motive and thought, not in action alone. Works alone don't get us to heavenly nor do they alone keep us from it. It is our heart, our attitude, our motivation. That is what determines if an act (or inaction) is sinful.

I agree with Draug, actually. Admittedly I was pissed on the home page at the heading and first name I saw, but when I realized a user had started the thread and not Mujus, I calmed myself. I agree with you, zultar, in general and principle, though I think you're too kind at times, but in this particular case, I think Draug is right.

Hey Orion The Nicean Creed is a pretty succint statement of beliefs. It's very short and probably 75 to 90% of anyone you'd call Christian believes at least most of it. It was the measuring stick for what was Christian back in the late Roman Empire.

http://www.creeds.net/ancient/nicene.htm

The apostle's creed is similar and is probably used by more folks.


http://www.catholicplanet.com/catholic/creed.htm

just a note on the first one "catholic" means unified or universal, not to be confused with Roman Catholic particular church.

apostolic means that it is handed down through people who can trace a lineage all the way back to Christ, although how people trace that is a subject of some debate.

There are easily more that 2 billion of us, so getting a single "We believe this" is difficult since there are many denominations that disagree on particular things. FOr instance lots of us eat bread and wine (or grape juice) in the service, but The Roman Catholic's believe blessing it makes it become the body and blood of Christ. Anglicans say that in spirit (not physically) it is the Body and Blood of Christ, others say it is a remembrace of the body and blood of Christ sacrificed for us.

Notice they're all doing the same thing, just a different take on it. That's what lots of the differences amount to.

ANother difference, in the Nicene Creed, the Roman Catholics added [and the Son] to the creed without talking to the Eastern Orthodox Churches. THat was kind of the last straw for the EOC as they'd been drifting apart for a while (different languages the EOC based on Greek and the RCC based on Latin, and a different outlook). By the time the EOC had gotten the RCC to agree to get back together to meet Charlemagne had emblazoned the new Creed on the ceiling at St. Peter's in Rome. So that was kind of a thing for those guys, and also why the "and the Son" part was in brackets.

That's a good place to start as far as core beliefs. NT Wright as bartdogg says is pretty good. I like C.S. Lewis (the Chronicles of Narnia guy). He has several short book that explain it pretty well. If you have any specific questions don't hesitate to ask. It's well known around here that I like to prattle on about this ;-)

Thanks, dubm. I actually have the daily reading threads (and a few others) muted because I neither feel the need nor the desire to get involved in debate of that nature any more. So I was a *little* annoyed as well until I opened the thread and took the time to read that it was a legit question from a different user.

Side-stepping the fighting over Mujus...

Ori0n, in all honesty--

How do you NOT know what Christianity is, and it's basics?

I mean, even if you did come from a very-anti-Christian background, Judeo-Christian tropes are practically embedded into the Western World...heck, we even have a pagan-festival-turned-fake-day-of-Jesus'-birth...

Christmas!

I honestly don't mean any ill will or to be rude, I just don't see how you couldn't grow up in the West knowing the basics of Christianity--God creates world, Adam and Eve, Noah, Exodus, the Ten Commandments, lots of passages giving rules to people 5,000 years ago like not to plant two different crops side by side and, oh yes, that in that same note homosexuality according to them is an abomination...and then the New Testament with Virgin Mary, Virgin Birth of Jesus (rum pum pum pum?), Jesus and 12 Disciples, Sermon on the Mount, Judas the Disciple, betrays them, "Forgive them father, they know not what they do," Jesus Crucified, Died for our sins (allegedly) and is (allegedly) ressurected 3 days later, and Revelations predicts an end of the world scenario.

I mean, just about all of that is mainstream knowledge...

EVEN if I met someone who told me they had no idea where "To be or not to be, that is the question" comes from (in which case I'd be weeping on the inside) EVERYONE knows "In the Beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth" and "I am the Lord Thy God, Thou Shalt Worship No Other Gods Before Me" and "Let my people go" and "Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother" and "Love thy neighbor" and so on and knows where they come from...

From a translation in Jacobean English translated from the Latin translation of the original Hebrew and Greek versions of a 5,000 year old text in languages that are radically different to the point one, Ancient Hebrew, doesn't even have vowels, of course.

But still, they KNOW it's fro the Bible, and what it's about...

Hell, I think it's no shock to anyone here I'm as anti-Bible as they come...and I still know where all of that comes from.

So again, I'm not trying to poke at you or anything, I just don't see how you couldn't know what Christianity, in its basics, is while living in the Western World; even if you grew up in the most anti-religion family imaginable, assuming you've had contact with those in the outside world via TV, the Internet, or just at school, I would think you'd know...you'd simply HAVE to know...like it or not?

@Obi - How do you know he grew up in the West? Once again, your youthful ignorance is showing. You make assumptions and assertions without first investigating. Instead of saying "How coul you grow up in the West and not know?" you should ask him what country he is from and learn more about him.

...Well, as most people on the site HAVE grown up in the West, I'd think it was a safe assumption until proven otherwise...

Much as most people on this site are from Europe/Canada/The United States of America?

I know we have some from Asia and South America as well, but still, MOST, the overwhelming majority, are from those areas.

Oh and Obitard - It's 12 Apostles. The Apostles were disciples and so were hundreds possibly thousands of others.

And knowing what a book says and a bunch of stories isn't truly knowing what Christians believe. I dare say you don't have a clue if you think all those OT stories and some NT stories and other shit are all there is to Christianity or even think they are the important parts.

The important part of Christiantiy has shit to do with the 10 Commandments or Noah''s Arc or even the virgin birth. The only "story" part of it all that is central is Christ's crucifixion and resurrection - his sacrifice and victory. The rest of the important stuff is in his teaching and leading by example and in the "Holy Sprirt inspired" writings of Paul's letters and The Revelation of Christ as given to John.

There is no such thing as a safe assumption on the web. Some day you will grow up and understand this.

Yeah, I know that Mujus just answered OP's question, but I am just tired of him acting as the Diplomacy Pope. It vexes me to see him post over and over. There are plenty of Christians on the site and I am sure some of them can answer OP's question at least as well, if not more eloquently without sounding preachy.
I didn't want to post on his thread because I want to see how many continuous posts Mujus will put up before he realizes that he is the only one "contributing." After the 10th continuous post, I thought he would realize his folly, but that apparently was not the case.

I fully admit that my reply was perhaps out of place in this thread and I am usually tolerable and I try not to derail threads unnecessarily, but I am tired of the hand holding that we have to do for Mujus. He's a grown ass man who, given his proclaimed propensity towards being a good Christian, should be able to recognize the banality of his daily postings and how utterly useless and ineffective they have been.

Actions, even anonymous and digitized, speak louder than words. Don't assiduously asseverate that you are a good Christian. ACT like one and you have a much better chance to getting someone to seriously consider Christ's message.

What's more, even supposing he grew up elsewhere...

Where could he be where he both has free access to the Internet (so not restricted China/ a restricted Middle Eastern nation or blacked out North Korea) and has no knowledge of Christianity?

In South America, surely, he'd have been exposed to it, very religious down there...

In the Middle East, certainly, even if only by way of one of the other two Abrahamic religions saying "Christianity is wrong and we're right because ___"...

In the regions of Asia where he'd have been free to access the Internet, there'd have been enough of a presence of the West previously where he probably would have at least heard of it and known the basics...

And again in Africa, they have Churches and Mosques throughout the more inhabited areas, and then those areas which are wasteland, wilderness, or both are likely off any sort of Internet grid...

So where could he be where he both can connect to the Internet but could not find out anything about Christianity?

What's more, he said his parents were very anti-religious, indicating that wherever he lives, his PARENTS, at least, knew enough about some religion to be strongly against it and against all religions, by the description, and as it doesn't make sense to be anti-religious in a vacuum where they wouldn't have been exposed to religion, it seems logical to conclude they're rejecting religion after previous exposure, indicating that his parents and, coupled with the above, he himself are, in all likelihood, somewhere where religion is prevalent enough for there to be those who would decide to be anti-religious...

Such places are generally on the grid, and thus have access to the Internet...

He clearly DOES have access to the Internet, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to post his question...

SO, it seems logical to conclude that he likely IS in the Western world by the sheer demographics of the site, and even if he isn't, he's still in a place with Internet access, clearly, so he should be able to Wikipedia this in a heartbeat and link to millions of sites and bam! instant knowledge of Christianity,a nd that's assuming the most sheltered case where he has had no contact with Christian friends or strangers in his life, which itself is, statistically, doubtful.

Agreed in full zultar. The first post just needed the introduction of the second post.

"Oh and Obitard - It's 12 Apostles. The Apostles were disciples and so were hundreds possibly thousands of others."

OK, well, if the 12 Apostles WERE Disciples, my statement wasn't technically wrong, was it? I don't think it mangles any part of Scripture to say 12 Disciples when everyone here knows which 12 I'm talking about, so...quit quibbling over the minutia (though that IS an excellent introductory lesson in Christianity for Ori0n, two people quibbling over something so silly as that.)

"And knowing what a book says and a bunch of stories isn't truly knowing what Christians believe. I dare say you don't have a clue if you think all those OT stories and some NT stories and other shit are all there is to Christianity or even think they are the important parts."

That statement was...a bit incoherent...

"The important part of Christiantiy has shit to do with the 10 Commandments or Noah''s Arc or even the virgin birth. The only "story" part of it all that is central is Christ's crucifixion and resurrection - his sacrifice and victory."

1. The Christians I've met count the Commandments and Noah story and all that as important to Christianity, so until Crazy Anglican or Mujus or someone of that nature tells me they mean fuck all to Christianity, they count, and

2. I PUT the crucifixion/ressurection story in there, did you not read all the way through?

"The rest of the important stuff is in his teaching and leading by example and in the "Holy Sprirt inspired" writings of Paul's letters and The Revelation of Christ as given to John."

1. I mentioned his teachings, AGAIN, via the Sermon n the Mount, and

2. I mentioned Revelations.



So...yeah...I mentioned ALL of that, if only in passing...so what was I not touching base on again?

"There is no such thing as a safe assumption on the web. Some day you will grow up and understand this."

Well, I can assume you were connected to the Internet at the time of sending that message, hence it's going through...

THAT is a safe assumption, right?

But Obi (and you are starting to annoy me now with your holier than thou attitude of the last couple of days). He wanted to know froma Christian what Christians truly believe. I wouldn't have a fucking clue what Jews truly believe if I didn't have Jewish family I talked to and I don't have a clue what Muslims, Buddhists, or Hindus truly believe because I don't know any. All we know is what we are taught and the OP has the wherewithall to realize what he was taught might not be the truth as it is coming from a biased source and not an actual believer. How can you not get that? Oh wait, I know how... Because you have become worse than Putin at assuming your view is the only right view.

And no, that isn't a safe assumption, that uis a logically deduced assertion. For an English major, you sure as fuck don't know much about the meaning of the words you use.

What did you miss? I told you one you missed and glossed over. Paul's letters. The Sermon on the Mount isn't Paul's Letters.

Without reading the other responses (pressed for time) I will answer your question based on my own understanding and experience (the branch of Christianity with which I am most familiar is the Southern Baptist Convention).

The most important thing about Christianity is, you guessed it, Jesus of Nazareth, called Jesus Christ by Christians. (The word Christ is not part of his name, but is a title meaning messiah, which means a lot of things but for Christians means savior of the world, sent from God. Thus you should know that when you say "Jesus Christ" you are actually stating your belief about who Jesus was)

Anyway, the most important things they believe about Jesus are that he:

1) Rose from the dead three days after his crucifixion and is not currently dead, but in heaven
2) Is fully God, but while he was on earth as Jesus of Nazareth, was also fully man (a case of 100% of both at once)
3) Is one member of the three-member Trinity, which is the confluence of the Father (creator figure), Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit (less well-defined, but often cited as your conscience).

The last really important belief is that the death of Jesus was a punishment exacted by God on his son (and in a way himself) that would be equivalent to the punishment all humans, ever, deserve for their wrongdoing. The doctrine goes that all people are inherently evil (tend toward doing wrong things) and deserve extreme punishment.

You can think of it as a cosmic imperative, that the evil be punished severely. However, at the same time, it is believed that God loves humankind, and does not wish to punish us, despite our evil (they believe we are his creation, made in his image). Thus, he devised what could be described as a loophole in this cosmic imperative and sent Jesus, his son, also God, to earth to be crucified and rise from the dead.

The act of the crucifixion, Christians believe, was the most painful, severe, punishment anyone has ever experienced. They believe he was not only physically tortured by the cross, but also spiritually tortured by God himself. Basically all of the punishment all people who ever lived deserved added together into one giant, awful punishment.

This is the central message of Christianity - salvation and repentance. They believe that now that the sacrifice has been made, any person may at any time repent of their wrongdoing (sin) and ask forgiveness of God (they also sometimes stipulate that you have to specifically acknowledge Jesus' sacrifice). If you do this, you will not be punished, you have in effect accepted God's gift to you. You will go to heaven if you do this, and you are considered "saved," or, in other words, Christian.

Those who do not are seen as contemptible because they are in essence rejecting a free gift given out of love. Imagine if a stranger died so that your best friend could be spared, and you did not even thank his family. That is how Christians view people who knowingly reject the Gospel (which is the word meaning "good news" which is their message, the message I have just described to you).

One last thing that almost all Christians believe, besides all of the above, is that people have an imperative to do good as best they can, and to spread this gospel to anyone who has not heard it or not yet accepted it. Doing otherwise is seen as irresponsible, resigned friends and family to hell.

So that's it, in a nutshell. There is also an important concept of worshipping God, which is seen as an important thing as well. Worshipping God can be done in numerous ways, by praying and giving thanks, by expressing yourself in music, by doing good works, etc. etc. But if you do not worship God Christians will say that something is wrong with you and that you perhaps did not really accept the gospel, because if you had and really believed it, you would worship God in thanks.

Lastly they believe that everything that exists was created by God including Satan and hell, the earth, heaven, the angels, and all of the physical universe for that matter. They believe that it was create by God in order to glorify himself. They believe that this is not selfish (it would seem selfish at first glance) because God is so good and great that he actually deserves such glory. God is not considered to be anthropomorphic, in that although we are thought to be "made in His image", he is not like us, and is unfathomable to a certain extent. Hence the saying, "God works in mysterious ways."

That's the best summary I've got, any questions?

Oh shit I forgot they also think it's very important that you believe in the Bible as true. How literally you take it is a matter of some debate among Christians, the literalists are the "fundamentalists" you hear about in the news, those who take it figuratively are "liberal" or "mainline" Christians.

The different flavors of Christian, roughly, are Catholic (the original Church founded in Rome), eastern Orthodox (just as old but in the eastern Roman Empire), Protestants (a whole lot of different denominations that have existed since the Reformation (1500-1600s) and is basically defined as anything that is not Catholic or Orthodox.

Then you have, as I was saying, the evangelical/literalist/fundamentalist/conservative wing of Christianity which has members in all of the above sects, versus the liberal/mainline/interpretive wing, which also has members in every denomination. This last is ideological and not so much a formal division, though some denominations are more associated with one than the other.

Southern Baptists, the denomination I mentioned that I know well, for instance, are notoriously conservative. For instance, they recently issued a statement proclaiming that gay rights are not civil rights, and that they think it is wrong of the gay movement to "misappropriate" the language of civil rights. Not all Christians are like that though.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/southern-baptists-declare-gay-rights-civil-rights-article-1.1099710

"What did you miss? I told you one you missed and glossed over. Paul's letters. The Sermon on the Mount isn't Paul's Letters."

OK, given that I'm NOT a Christian...
NOT a believer of any sort...
AND I was trying to give a quick, Cliff-Cliff-Cliff notes account...

I think leaving out one thing is still decent enough; granted it's a large omission, but hey, Olivier omitted Rosencrantz, Guildenstern, and Fortinbras from his Best Picture-winning version of "Hamlet"...a large omission, but one he made for time...

It's not as if I left out Jesus/Hamlet out of the story...

I left out something important, sure, but as Mujus had already given The Gospel According to Mujus above, I thought it was OK to give an abbreviated account.

(You and Putin should really get together more, our need to nitpick others while shamelessly defending yourselves from all criticism is really quite deplorable to the rest of us, but in each other you'd find quite the trolling soul mate...and for all you've done to criticize ME account, you'd done fuck all, I notice, to give your own start-to-finish account of it...just like criticizing others without giving your own effort?)

Also...

I ask--where is Ori0n?

Because I smell a troll in all of this...I find it unlikely you don't know this, Ori0n, and givne that any fool here half a day can see how easily we can be set to flaming one another over religion...

If you're a-trolling, I have to admit, you're doing a good job so far...

There are also a few ancient branches of Christianity which have existed as long as anyone can basically remember, Coptic Christians in Egypt and that part of the Middle East and Christians in Ethiopia, which has been Christian at least as long as Italy, probably longer.

The largest sect is Catholicism, I think. There are Catholics everywhere, but strong concentrations in some European countries (Italy, Spain, part of France, Ireland, Poland, others), Latin America, the Philippines, southern India, and the United States. Also parts of Africa. Most of Africa is Protestant, however. Protestantism is increasingly growing at the expense of Catholicism in Latin America. Many Europeans increasingly are not Christian at all. Ditto for Russia and many countries where eastern Orthodoxy is the majority. Christianity has taken root in east Asia in recent years such that South Korea is intensely Protestant for the most part, Christians (mostly Protestant) are growing in number in China, etc.

Also Mormons are not considered Christians by all the other Christians, though they themselves consider themselves Christian. Their doctrine is fairly different from what I described above and I don't know it well enough to try to.

0ri0n said he knows the basics so assuming that he is either troll or Bushmen because he dares to admit limited knowledge is fairly standard obilitism (he could be both for all that it matters). Nevertheless, "how do you get into heaven" is definitely not a trivial question and I'm pretty sure that apart from some bastardized tales from "authoritative" sources like Paradise Lost or Divine Comedy, obi knows jack shit about the process as well.