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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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CSteinhardt (9560 D(B))
21 Jun 12 UTC
Ethical Question
Looking for advice from others on webDip
21 replies
Open
worm (161 D)
21 Jun 12 UTC
The problem of NMRs
What can be done to reduce the problem of NMRs and abandoning players?
28 replies
Open
flc64 (1963 D)
22 Jun 12 UTC
Extra Time Added
I am in several games that are 24 hour periods that now have greater than 24 hours until the next phase.

What's up with that?
4 replies
Open
Tyran (914 D)
22 Jun 12 UTC
World diplomacy match needs players!
gameID=92149 it's a full press world diplomacy match. Needs 3 players in as many hours. Join now please!
2 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
15 Jun 12 UTC
Obama/Department To Halt Deportation of "Dreamer" Illegal Immigrants
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/report-white-house-halt-deportation-young-illegal-immigrants-133800284.html

I applaud this...I think it's a great decision...Obama to give a speech on this shortly around 10:15 Pacific Time. Thoughts on the decision itself and the impact on the 2012 race>
57 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
20 Jun 12 UTC
They Improve Their Appetite When They Exercise (Just As Long As No Skinny People Snicker)
http://shine.yahoo.com/healthy-living/gym-bans-skinny-people-173000110.html
Banning skinny people from a gym...because it "brings down morale"...
Isn't that sort of like getting rid of all the smart kids in class because it makes the schmucks who think "The Day After Tomorrow" is scientifically accurate feel badly when they fail? WHEN did the West develop this "fear of failure" self-esteem issue?
93 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
22 Jun 12 UTC
A message of hope for Diablo fans
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18532670
0 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
21 Jun 12 UTC
There Can Be Only One--Which Actors/Films Pull Off The Character Best?
The many Bonds...the many Doctors...the different Darens...different Marx Bros. and Stooges...the many Hamlets and Holmes...the originals and remakes and re-imaginings...

Give a role with multiple actors, or a story with multiple adaptations, and say which one you take over the other(s) and why...which are the DEFINITIVE portrayals and films, and which are...not? ;)
21 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
22 Jun 12 UTC
Is this GunBoat perfection?
7 replies
Open
Leonidas (635 D)
21 Jun 12 UTC
Attention participants of ***Egos Aside*** GUNBOAT
we have made the roster available to everyone so that there is no advantage of any sort to anyone....
two of you are not identified, check this thread out to add your user name please, or just add it here...... thanks

threadID=887469
1 reply
Open
0ri0n (0 DX)
21 Jun 12 UTC
What is Christianity?
Obviously, I know that its like one of the most popular religion out there but coming from a very anti-christian background, I dont really know what they actually believe. I know the basics like that Jesus is God but like how do you get into heaven and stuff? This is NOT a debating forum.
86 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
21 Jun 12 UTC
Crisis and democracy
Brace yourselves
2 replies
Open
Invictus (240 D)
21 Jun 12 UTC
Could China Annex the Moon?
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/06/18/red_moon_rising?page=full
18 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
11 Jun 12 UTC
Jazz
Talk about jazz
46 replies
Open
Fortress Door (1837 D)
21 Jun 12 UTC
WTA GB-21
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=92419
1 reply
Open
SweetnessFSU (127 D)
21 Jun 12 UTC
Leave game
how can you leave a game after it starts?
3 replies
Open
Bbrett93 (100 D)
20 Jun 12 UTC
The Contention Centers: Belgium, Sweden, and Greece
In my opinion, these three centers cause the most drama in 1901.
Who has the most claim to them, and how do you negotiate your nations units into them?
14 replies
Open
fortknox (2059 D)
21 Jun 12 UTC
Diplomacy Class 1 discussion
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=82023#gamePanel
A bit embarrassing that it ends in a 2-way if it is called a 'class', but I'm interested in other's thoughts. There are some frustrations I had with the game, but I'm not bitter because I lost. Feel free to share your feelings, especially to the 8 (we had a sub) that played.
2 replies
Open
hammac (100 D)
21 Jun 12 UTC
Joan Baez
Saw Joan Baez at the Zenith in Caen (France) last night!
Abxolutely superb and she's 71. Still believable in her support for the beliefs and causes that she's been fighting for over so many years.

1 reply
Open
Zmaj (215 D(B))
20 Jun 12 UTC
EoG: Gunboat-326
gameID=92320 The unglorious rape of France.
18 replies
Open
joshildinho101 (128 D)
21 Jun 12 UTC
Quick game gameID=92351
0 replies
Open
emfries (0 DX)
21 Jun 12 UTC
Which is Better: Remix or Original?
The original: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1cxP2nCBdU
The remix: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlnS6KfskbU
I hate rap music, but given that it's made by a few goons from my hometown, I gave it a chance. Debate.
0 replies
Open
Sargmacher (0 DX)
20 Jun 12 UTC
How can you deal with obtuse 'morons' who will never give credit to opposing arguments?
Serious question. When you're debating, discussing, or arguing with people and they simply won't accept other points of view, even after reams of evidence, how can you respond? Is it best just to walk away or should we strive to educate?

How would you deal with someone utterly convinced that the Earth was flat, for example?
54 replies
Open
hellalt (70 D)
20 Jun 12 UTC
Webdiplomacy.net FB Fan page
in case you didn't know there is one :P
Join it at http://www.facebook.com/webdiplomacy
0 replies
Open
Sbyvl36 (439 D)
20 Jun 12 UTC
How old is the Earth?
How old do you think the world is? Do you believe the scientists (Billlions of years) or do you think its only few thousand years old. Give me your entire argument
96 replies
Open
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
20 Jun 12 UTC
Histrionic Personality Disorder
Read and think of anyone on here who might perhaps have this.
25 replies
Open
King Atom (100 D)
20 Jun 12 UTC
will i go to hell for posting cheating accusations in the forum?
Also, who's nietzscheptzhedkfj? is he knew?
18 replies
Open
Draugnar (0 DX)
19 Jun 12 UTC
Anyone here get into darts?
I've been watching some late night darts on ESPN2 or some such. And it really looks like an enjoyable combination of throwing skill, math skill, and strategy.
17 replies
Open
Al Swearengen (0 DX)
20 Jun 12 UTC
Winner Takes All vs. Point Distribution
See below.
17 replies
Open
jmbostwick (2308 D)
19 Jun 12 UTC
England Gunboat Strategy
First in a series of threads discussing country-specific tactics for gunboat (no-messaging) games.
jmbostwick (2308 D)
19 Jun 12 UTC
Hey all -- I thought, being a newer member of the community, that I'd start up a series of threads to discuss strategies for each of the countries in Gunboat games. I decided to start with England because (frankly) it's one I have the most trouble with. I tend to see England be very dominant whenever I'm not playing it, but tend to get steamrolled when I am. (See just-ended gameID=92145, for example).

I'm not looking for specific critiques -- this isn't about any one game, it's about the country and how to play it in gunboat games. So, I was curious -- what do you tend to do when you draw England, and why? What 'tells' do you look for, and what do you send?
Zmaj (215 D(B))
19 Jun 12 UTC
I hate England!!! I always end up attacking Germany because nobody else is available, and France always manages to sneak up.
Fortress Door (1837 D)
19 Jun 12 UTC
England is the harest country to play as in gunboat

I almost always open F Lon-Nth. A Lvp-Yor. F Edi-Nth

is France moves into the Channel, then i self-bounce in london and build a new unit there with the norway build

Germany can't effect much in 1901

if Russia opens with A. St. Petersburg, then i support a convoy into Norway and begin pummeling him

if both France and RUssia open anti-England, you are dead. Simple as that
Don't over-extend like that. Over the course of the game, you have been in Moscow, Warsaw, Kiel and other places, but you let France and Germany convoy onto your homeland.

England can attack Russia very well, but you can only do this if Germany and France leave you alone. Otherwise you can never hold the centers you gain.

In 1901, you should have self-bounced in Lon and built a fleet there. Or in Liverpool, but that's almost surely war with France.
2ndWhiteLine (2596 D(B))
19 Jun 12 UTC
Please do not talk about Diplomacy in the WebDiplomacy forum. This space is reserved for religious and political arguments.
I would say that it is important to ensure that France cannot get in your backdoor. This is crippling and also a very popular strategy for France. Equally, you do not want to provoke france by moving to the channel as this is just another way to start a battle.

Keep an eye on france and what they are doing. Do not attack G or R unless you appear to have at least a build locked up and france is a year away from Liverpool. it is fairly easy to attack Russia through Barents, SKA and Scandinavia. Equally, Germany is very vulnerable through SKA and HEL.

In short, if france appears to be peaceful, use these lever spaces (SKA/HEL) to gain soem centres. If you can make a good jump france will be unable to attack. The alternative is to defend vs. an aggressive france and hope that G and R will not attack you. Usually if france attacks the game becomes way harder. but if you are patient enough Russia will likely have other things on his plate and you can hopefully cultivate a relationship with germany.

Something I have experimented with to some success is the EDI-NWS, LON-ENG and LVP-EDI opening. Purely pro-Germany so if he understands it often leads to success.
ulytau (541 D)
19 Jun 12 UTC
I developed a unique strategy where I always get nowhere, make some miscalculation and get piled upon. Works every time.
It's gunboat, so you have to send a very clear message early on, so go very very strongly anti-French [F(Lon)-EnC, F(Edi)-NtS, A(Lvp)-Wal]. Why? 1) Anti-German isn't really signalled by any opening, France wouldn't learn anything from your earliest moves. 2) Germany will love you for it and join in the fun. 3) France really has no place else to go if Germany joins in. Of course, if you do that and Russia opens with [F(St.P)-GoB, A(Mos)-St.P] you're probably screwed.
I believe it is unwise to open anti-anyone in any gunboat game.
2ndWhiteLine (2596 D(B))
19 Jun 12 UTC
Hence your usual Yorkshire Pudding opening.
CSteinhardt (9560 D(B))
19 Jun 12 UTC
I'll share some notes on playing England -- if there's interest, I'll do the same for some other countries as it comes up. To sum the following mini-article up in one word, what I'd like you to reflexively think about when somebody tells you England is PATIENCE.

In gunboat, even more so than with press, England is a country for the moderate to advanced player. A weak player can win a game with Austria if everything breaks correctly, because once you start getting builds, as a central power there are always places to grow. England is tougher, but if played well should be much more enjoyable than Austria, too. Austrias can play wonderfully and die in 1903. When England dies in gunboat, it is almost always because of the decisions England has made.

The secret to playing England in gunboat is, ultimately, recognizing that there isn't one. If you open strongly anti-French and Russia goes north, you're in a lot of trouble. If you open strongly anti-German, well, is there such a thing? You can open strongly towards Scandinavia, with NTH - SKA, build F Edi/Lon then send it to NTH, if Russia opens southward.

Geography dictates much of your thinking, so let's start by discussing geography and what it means:

1) None of your neighbors need you dead to win.

That's right, none. France can reach 18 with, for example, Iberia, Benelux, Germany, Italy, Tunis, and pushing armies into Austria or Russia. For Germany, subtract Iberia and Brest, say, but add three of the Russian home centers and Austria + Serbia. Russia has many ways to win as a southern power plus some of Germany. So, all of your neighbors can reach 18 while you reach about 10 -- none of them are beginning the game thinking "At some point I'm going to have to deal with England if I want to win, so should it be sooner or later?"

2) You are very far from your 18th center. England cannot win without taking one of Moscow, Warsaw, Vienna, Venice, Tunis. If you get into Moscow/Warsaw, you probably aren't going to end up taking Marseilles or all of Iberia, either. And the various places you can cross the lines are far apart. From very early on, you always need to be thinking about where 18 might be coming from.

3) Also like Turkey, reinforcements are always far away from your front. Therefore, everything you do must be planned in advance. This is, again, an important skill in Diplomacy, but England demands it more than any other country in gunboat with the exception of Italy. [And it's probably no surprise that players who struggle with England also struggle with Italy]

The combination of these three factors dictates that England, more than any other country in gunboat, needs to be playing a patient, balance-of-power game. There may be times that you should be happy, in 1904, to be sitting in Lon/ENG/NTH/Nwy, supporting everything, and waiting for the situation to develop. Austria gets to be played by cobras, blindly striking at their foes and hoping to survive the encounter. You must be an anaconda, slowly and methodically crushing the life out of your prey.

So, what does this mean for some specific advice? First off, it means that your foremost goal as England in 1901 is to be able to look at the entire board before choosing what war to fight. Is a two-build England in 1901 nice? Yes, but it's very rarely sustainable. Better to ensure you get a build out of Norway and look at the board. Will I start a war in F1901? Yes, if it is already clear to me what war I want to or need to fight. But I am happy to sit out a few turns and let things develop, too. When England is not sticking its neck out, it's a very hard target for France and Germany, and they will usually find juicier prey. On the other hand, remember that your nice defensive position is both a blessing a curse. Great defensive position, but for the same reason, you can't shift units easily. So if you pick one of France, Germany, and Scandinavia to strike at, you had darned well better have made the right choice. Which is all the stronger argument for delaying it until you are able to get it right.

Finally, a couple of notes on the midgame. England is always going to struggle as it grows to get the right units in the right places. You want fleets on the water and armies on land, of course. And a 8-center Scandinavian England with, say, F ENG,NTH,NWG,SKA,BAL can shift an army from Picardy to Livonia in two turns, and all points in between. But, invariably, that's not how it turns out. You usually first grow by putting fleets where you need armies, and then have the problem of extricating those fleets to put armies in there places, while trying not to go too far backward in doing so.

Again, the watchword is PATIENCE. England is for the long-term planners. Imagine that you're about to be able to take a center when you attack Germany, but it involves putting a fleet into Holland which will need to be replaced by an army amidst hostile presence. Should you do it? A simple tip: if you take the center, you know what happens next. You build a unit and Germany disbands a unit. Imagine the board after that happens. What will your next turn look like? It sounds obvious, but a general rule of playing any game is that if doing X will immediately lead to you making another decision, and you're unsure whether to do X, figure out what decision you'll make first, and that will help you decide whether to do X.

And if that means delaying a build or two until you can take things in the right way, well, you're England. PATIENCE is what you do. And remember, you're in a position to be damned good at it. After all, Lord Palmerston invented the idea. :)
Zmaj (215 D(B))
19 Jun 12 UTC
A great essay, even though it's from CSteinhardt. I love the snake metaphor.
Nice post CSteinhardt. Quite well articulated and some great content as well.

You didn't quite mention this specifically, but I think the fleet:army ratio is something that needs considering. England can take and hold 18 centres with 3 fleets. Consider the POR through WAR line. A fleet in NTH, ENG and MAO is all that is needed. If England advances as a strong power into the midgame, with only three fleets, they will not need any more.

The problem is, in the early game is it exceedingly hard to grow with a small navy. So there is temptation to build extra fleets that will ultimately prove unnecessary when a solo bid comes around.

Think long and hard before building fleets.Usually a W01 fleet is a good call, but after that, be patient, as Steinhardt said.
LakersFan (899 D)
19 Jun 12 UTC
Excellent post, CS. Really very informative. My two cents (as I just got wiped out in a GB as England yesterday - gameID=92087) is make sure to only attack France or Germany. Once you start coming after both (i.e. when I moved to E. Channel in '02 in the game I referenced above, rather than going for Helgioland to attack Germany), you become a nuisance that both F and G would sooner be rid of. Patience is definitely a good word to use.
CSteinhardt (9560 D(B))
19 Jun 12 UTC
@Lando: Well stated, and I completely agree -- the fleet/army ratio is another of those things that you need to think about well in advance. You can't take Munich with fleets. On the other hand, there are three theaters in which you might want to use fleets: Scandinavia, home waters, and around Portugal / Western Med. Doing any of those properly involves pretty close to three fleets, and it's difficult to win without being able to do at least two of those. Then again, it also depends a lot on what your neighbors build. If you get a 5-army, 1-fleet France attacking a 4-army, 1-fleet Germany and a southern-focused Russia, you won't need more than three fleets for a long time, and might even get away with two. A three-fleet France, on the other hand...

Historically, the British were faced with a similar dilemma around 1901, and their solution was to invest in a navy as big as the total of the two largest other navies. Perhaps the correct solution here is similar: if you can't quite figure out how many fleets you're going to need, a good heuristic might be to aim for roughly as many as your two largest neighbors combined? Has anybody tried something like this?
England's relationship with France and Scandinavia is almost identical to Austria's relationship with Italy and the Balkans.
Realistically, nobody should be building a ton of armies. I remember a post by Jacob maybe a year ago where he talked about this and I disagreed. I have since come around to his side.

Italy shouldn't have more than 2 or 3 fleets, the next most would probably be 2 or 3 in Turkey or France. So realistically, rule of thumb maybe England wants to max out at 5 or 6 by game's end?
Yonni (136 D(S))
19 Jun 12 UTC
"Please do not talk about Diplomacy in the WebDiplomacy forum. This space is reserved for religious and political arguments."

He isn't. He's talking about gunboat. ; )
gman314 (100 D)
19 Jun 12 UTC
Lando: I think you mean nobody should be building a ton of fleets.

I remember that discussion. Since then I've built fewer fleets and done better. Armies are your powerful driving force. Fleets are the support for that.
Yeah, you're right. That is what I meant.
2ndWhiteLine (2596 D(B))
20 Jun 12 UTC
"He isn't. He's talking about gunboat."

We should start a thread to discuss the difference. I'm not convinced its the same game.
Fortress Door (1837 D)
20 Jun 12 UTC
^ we already have WAY too many of those
djakarta97 (358 D)
20 Jun 12 UTC
The England situation is one that offers the player a two-edged sword: On one hand, the great defenses allow for the player to support hold their units in the British Isle (though Liverpool can't support London if France starts out anti-England). However, at the same time, England can also strike out at Russia, France and Germany from their position. If they get a foothold in Belgium or Holland, they can strike at France (Brest within a year) or Germany (Kiel in one move from Holland or 2 from Belgium).

djakarta97 (358 D)
20 Jun 12 UTC
I remember a game I joined as England in which I started out in 1904 with a 3-supply center England. I proceeded to take the North Sea, attack Germany, Russia and draw the game with 11 supply centers. England has to start with taking the Low Countries and Scandanavia, proceeding to take Denmark, Kiel, and St. Petersburg as well. These supply centers are vital to England's survival in the game.(gameID=54381)
Alderian (2425 D(S))
20 Jun 12 UTC
ulytau - "I developed a unique strategy where I always get nowhere, make some miscalculation and get piled upon. Works every time."

Sorry to break it to you, but that is not a unique strategy by any means.
ulytau (541 D)
20 Jun 12 UTC
Oh shucks. In that case...

I PERFECTED the COMMON strategy where I always get nowhere, make some miscalculation and get piled upon. Works every time.
achillies27 (100 D)
20 Jun 12 UTC
What I do is hope France and Russia don't open anti England, then I make taking scandinavia my priority. After that I attack whichever country that starts attacking me by then.
Alderian (2425 D(S))
20 Jun 12 UTC
Question. If I open NorthSea, Norwegian, and Yorkshire, and then take Norway; while France focuses on neutrals so is not directly aggressive; what should I build?

Even in press games I've seen France throw away a good alliance being tempted by Liverpool, so in a recently completed game, I built a fleet in Liverpool. And France built a fleet in Brest and army in Marseilles and we both moved at each other and fought all game long.

Is there a better build that would neither tempt nor antagonize France?
A second army is a good first build, assuming you have only one. This does not provoke france and helps prevnt him from being tempted.
Also, Yorkshire Pudding.
Alderian (2425 D(S))
20 Jun 12 UTC
But do you build that second army in Liverpool? Or do you build it in Edi or Lon and move to Yorkshire where it could defend either Liverpool or London if needed?
djakarta97 (358 D)
20 Jun 12 UTC
Build a second army in London and then use F NTH to convoy to Belgium, Holland, Denmark or Norway. Convoying in the north guarantees a Great Northern War between Russia, Germany and England. Convoying to the Low Countries is only advisable if you are perfectly sure that Germany and France won't band together against you and you have at least one other unit on the Continent to support hold the convoyed unit. If you build in London, you can also convoy across the English Channel to Brest or Picardy, threatening Paris within a turn. However, an anti-France opening risks that the concentration of forces in the south will leave you vulnerable to a stab in the north, especially if Germany and Russia band together to expel you from Norway. My opening of choice is either anti-France (F Lon > ENG, A Liv > Wales, F Edi > NTH) or anti-Russia (F Lon > NTH, A Liv > Edi, F Edi > NWG).


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