Well the good thing is one person in that argument is learning something. It isnt them. And it isnt that they are right. mostly just observing the pointless nature of peoples lives.

I always try to educate until I realize they aren't going to listen to me, then leave knowing I tried. There are subjects where some won't budge from either side, and in those, I try to educate people on the main argument point, which is usually not the focus of their arguments.

For example: abortion. It isn't that pro-choicers enjoy 'murder' as pro-lifers like to put it, or that pro-lifers don't think women should have control of their bodies as pro-choicers like to put it... it is all about when a fetus is considered a human. Pro-choicers think it is further along in the pregnancy than pro-lifers (who sometimes consider it at the moment of conception). That's it. That's the main cause of controversy.... so why are people bitching about the other stuff? Because it belittles their opponent and makes them feel like they have a stronger position than what they have.

You aren't going to change either person's point of view, but maybe you can let them understand the real meat of the argument so they'll hopefully understand when to argue, when to protest, and when it just isn't going to matter...

Clearly and concisely state your position and the support of your position, not for the moron's benefit, but for others "listening in", and then don't worry about the moron.

"and then don't worry about the moron."

I disagree though, Alderian - I think we should be concerned about morons in our society. We should want everyone to have a certain standard of comprehension and understanding.

People may have said don't worry about the minority of morons who think Jews are equal to rats, look where that got us?

It's frustrating that some people simply cannot see reason or comprehend anything other than their very warped blinkered perception.

@fortknox: What you describe is fine - but it points towards an understanding that the people I mean simply never facilitate. Uncompromising, non-understanding morons.

It's a moot point really - there's little we can do, I realise that, I just wanted to hear some other takes, hoping I'm not the only one who simply wants to find the nearest brick wall and bang mine or their head against it.

This is exactly why I mostly avoid political arguments on the internet nowadays (with the exception of religion, which I sincerely believe to be the biggest obstacle humankind faces). Sure, a decade ago I would engage on every issue. I had more energy then. You're quite right that ignorance has to be challenged. Stupidity, on the other hand, is more difficult to overcome.

I don't just mean on the internet, twa. To be honest, I think this situation is more annoying face to face. In a room with lots of other people where we're really making progress understanding each other's points of view and developing arguments and then one person obtusely and defiantly rejects everything with a circular, often hypocritical, argument based on, for example, "because the Bible says it".

Well... yeah. That's pretty frustrating. Like I said above, ignorance is one thing, but willful stupidity is another. Studies show that people who believe things without evidence will often get more deeply entrenched in their beliefs when confronted with evidence to the contrary.

If there's only one moron in the room, you are in an unwinnable situation. The moron thinks conceding a point while still saving the face is impossible when no sympathetic supporters are around. Most probably, the moron will "win" the argument since everyone will stop responding to the drivel.

I distinctly remember meeting an obtuse fellow who, despite all the arguments, refused to accept that rounding up and killing Armenians was genocide. The best thing you can do is to stop arguing with them and let them live in their imaginary world. Why should you be bothered by them?

Morons vote. Morons drive cars. We really do need to worry about educating the morons.

That said, stubbornness is not necessarily a sign of being a moron. Some people have political, social, or religious beliefs and while these may not be logical, they are emotionally based and arguing against emotion is like pounding on a brick wall with a tennis ball and expeciting it to suddenly come crumbling down.

You need to step back and look at *why* the person isn't listening to you. Is it because they have a belief in God or a particular social/societal view? Then you may as well end the discussion. People with extreme views are often unwilling to cede even the smallest point revealing their bias and foolishness, and yet they may still be very intelligent people otherwise.

"I distinctly remember meeting an obtuse fellow who, despite all the arguments, refused to accept that rounding up and killing Armenians was genocide. The best thing you can do is to stop arguing with them and let them live in their imaginary world. Why should you be bothered by them?"

Because I don't want to let genocide continue?
Because genocide does bother me?

You'll rarely meet a person who is actually wrong about everything. Listen to them and look for that thing that you can agree with. They'll push harder if you do. I don't know about the rest of you but I'm more inclined to listen to someone who will listen to me.

While I agree Sarg, you just made my point about it being an emotional thing.

From the coutner point of view... Genocide is the systematic and deliberate extermination of a race. Armenia is a country. Is being Armenian a race? If not, it is not genocide. The emotional component says "your killing people because of some disctinct aspect and not because they are trying to kill you! Of course it's genocide!" But the reality is that there is no race called "Armenian" just as there is no race called "Jewish" or "American" or "Muslim" or "Christian" or many other identifying factors used as an excuse to commit attrocities.

Now, if the guy your were arguing with was stubbornly insisting there was nothing wrong with killing someone just because they come from Armenia, then he needs a big dose of "My Fist, Your Face" but trying to insist it is genocide and al he is saying is it isn't doesn't mean he is wrong. It just means you are arguing from an emotional point of view.

Oh and @djakarta...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080323144429AABQyMP

This willt el you all about Armenian heritage. Roudning up and killing peope just because they are Armenian is wrong. It's an attrocity of the highest sort. But it is not genocide because they are not a race.

obtuse Moron. I beliebe i read somewhere recently that most arguement remain u resolved becuase of an inability to see the other side's point of view.

We tend to simplify what they are saying and make our opponents out to be obtuse morons.

They do the same to us, which leads them into making claims about our beliefs which seem particularily moronic. (i can't think of any examples, but i'm sure there are many)

This just serves to reinforce the reason for disagreement and arguement.


As for 'is american a race' - well given that the concept of race is largely a socially constructed one - based on the similarity of genetics across different 'racial' groups and the diversity within any given 'racial group'; my understanding is that a 'race' is a social group not a genetic one - just as being Jewish is cultural, likewise being American is almost exclusivelu cultural. I can't help but see flaws in your logic; now i hope i don't seem moronic, or if i do that you can explain the place my idea of what you are saying are too simplified.

Oh wait, Armenian... Nationality/race/language/religion -> whatever you like as a cultural construct into which i add the idea of race.

@Draugar:

That's slightly pedantic. That is not what I was reacting to. I am aware of the blurred definitional borderlines between 'race' and 'nationality' and how this affects understanding of 'genocide'.

I don't think this was the point of djkarta's comment. I was reacting to the notion that 'obtuse morons' allow for genocide and racism, etc.

Everything I Need To Know About Dealing With Morons I Learned From Dr. Strangelove Or How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (TM)

Arguing with an idiot serves no purpose. Why would you want to?

Arguing with an idiot is like mud wrestling with a pig. You both wind up getting dirty and the pig enjoys it.

Find out where they live. Go there. Kill them. Problem solved.

Of course, if your information is incomplete... say you find out via the forum that they live in Florida, but you can't get them to reveal their specific name or address - that's not a huge problem. Just kill everyone in (for example) Florida, safe in the knowledge they'll be amongst the dead.

God will know his own, so it's ok.

But, Sarg, we don't know if the offending individual was just being pedantic or not. And we can't know because djakarta was, rightfully so, emotional attached to the argument and therefore his view of his opposition was colored by that emotion. I coudl wel have been that person and he would have thought I was all for killing Armenians when I was arguing that it wasn't genocide. I could even have poitned out that it was an attrocitiy of the worst order but in his emotional state, he would have overlooked what I said and only heared "it's not genocide" which he interpretted as being tacit approval of the actions.

There are at least three sides to every emotional discussion: the impassioned pro and con, and the impartial observer.

Wait a minute here. Back to the original question.
Who are we to patronisingly 'educate' 'morons'?
Unless the moron is David Cameron or someone else with minimal influence in the world, what the hell does it matter? A pub discussion is not going to change the world in any way whatsoever. Just walk away and leave them to their delusions - before you have to start thinking about the best Kung Fu defence posture. Just walk away.

@orathaic - race is clearly defined and results from isolationism over a long enough period of time for distinct traits ot have developed that radically differentiate someone from one race with another.. As it happens, given enought ime there will cease to be but one race amongst mankind, the human race. Go read the link I posted and you will understand better.

@Timur - So, you don't think we should square off against bigoted morons because "what happens in a pub doesn't matter" in the grand scheme? How can you *possibly* know this person won't go on to found some group that gains power and alters the world or at least kills a lot of innocent people? Maybe someone should have stood up to Nathan Bedford Forrest. I'm sure a lot of black people would have been very happy had he been put in his place and educated, even if it was with the "My Fist Your Face" or "Plant My Foot Up Your Ass" approach. Conspiracies and movements start small and grow and the most inoccuous person could be the founder of a movement that alters the world for better or for worse.

"before you have to start thinking about the best Kung Fu defence posture"

I like the crane stance. It isn't much of a defensive posture, but looks so freakin' cool.

I like "curled up in a ball and layign on back". It's such a great defensive posture for protecting vital organs.

Oh, thats easy, just say to yourself over and over "I'm right and they're wrong", "I'm right and they're wrong"

... and stick your fingers in your ears and go "nananananananana! I can't hear you! nananananananana!"?