ty

No, AA is a requirement that the minorities get special treatment. I have no problem with equal treatment.

Minority enrollments plummeted because the minorities don't work hard in school and maintian the GPA. Do you think hi GPAs are just *given* to the supposed majority (whjich is a misstatement in and of itself considering the world population has more blacks than whites and more women than men). No, they are earned. Get rid of the racially discriminatory college funds like the NAACP has and ban organizations that have a clear racial motivation (NAACP=Nation Association for the Advancement of Colored People) and enforce a fair and equal shot. Don't allow passing over one person for another of equal skills just over sex or race. And, if in fact the skills are equal, *then* encourage the promotion or hiring or enrollment of the minority. But to pass someone over for something who is *more* qualified because they weren't *enough* more qualified to voercome the advatnage given to a minority is discrimination and *must* be done away with.

Wow, didn't realize how far gone you were. Ban civil rights organizations? Tell me, when did the magic wand get waved and all anti-black barriers to advancement disappear? They're just lazy, huh? That's pretty outrageous, not to mention factually untrue. When controlling for quality of school district, blacks achieve at the same rate as whites. They're just disproportionately poor, so they live in poor school districts with no resources because school funding is based on property taxes, it's a never ending cycle.

"And, if in fact the skills are equal, *then* encourage the promotion or hiring or enrollment of the minority."

That's exactly what AA does. Get a clue and stop crying victim. You have this bizarre animus towards women and minorities that has been going on for quite a while, but nobody calls you out on it ever.

"Minority enrollments plummeted because the minorities don't work hard in school and maintian the GPA." Are you fucking kidding me Draugnar? Have you not seen an educational study about race at all in the past 20 years? Teachers are consistently more likely to value, encourage, straight up help white students over minority students. And the crazy part? Even black teachers are more likely to favour white students over black ones. You assume that educational attainment ball is entirely in the student's court. Simply not true. Also, on the whole, minority students are more likely to need to have jobs while studying (which they'll have a harder time getting than white students as we know) and are more likely to face money problems as well.

And @ Putin - everyone wants the mantle of victimhood. The left and the right, white people, and racial minorities, women and men, gays and straight people, atheists and the religious. Victimhood = legitimacy. This isn't to say that either side in any of these debates actually have equally legitimate claims to victimhood. There is in most cases one side which has a much, much, much stronger case.

Yeah... I'm definitely against AA, but for a different reason; it works against me.

Spoiler alert The Situation: That's the same reason, you're just willing to admit it.

Nah, you're all arguing about fairness. I'm just selfish, and I dislike things that give me disadvantages =P

I said they (as a group) didn't work as hard as the non-minorities. Individuals may well work hard. But, as a group, the inner city youth are more interested in causing trouble than studying and getting ahead. Si it their fault? Not completely. They are in an environment not conducive to study or even trying to stay out of trouble. I respect that. But to give them an advantage over someone who wroked hard and got the grades when they didn't is *wrong*. Only if all other things are equal, shoyuld preference be given to minority status.

AA does *not* do this. It runs a point system where lesser experienced, skilled, or otherwise qualified applicants can get a spot over someone more qualified.

OK so what you're saying is that status quo is such that white people will always have advantages over everyone else and it's wrong to do anything about that?

It sounds like the support for your point comes from personal experience. I mean, how else would you come to feel a group as a whole doesn't work as hard?

A person's skill does indeed affect grade levels and test scores. However, so does teacher preference. Unfortunately on the large scale, all you can monitor are test scores and grades.

See, the thing is, there are those who don't work hard, and there are those who do work hard. How do you separate the two? You really can't unless you monitor them 24/7. So at this point, the question is whether you give them the benefit of the doubt and skew the opportunity curve to favor the minority to account for factors such as teacher favoritism, or ignore the whole ordeal.

The above was directed at Draug.

Affirmative Action is fundamentally an attempt to ensure "equality" through unequal processes. It''s opposite to any standard of justice or "fairness" to unjustly favor a certain ethnic group over another. The ideals of liberty America was based on cannot allow favoring any group on racial or ethnic terms. Along the same line of thinking as affirmative action, forced busing was used in the 60s and 70s to racially integrate schools. These efforts failed horribly, leading to to miserable school commutes for students and long-lasting racial conflicts. Boston is a perfect example of this trend.

wow, I do not even know where to start, but I have to ask this question to whomever is in favor of AA.

When does it end? Do you have a day/time or $$ amount needed for it to end?

This is always my question, since my parents are immigrants here, and I went to a school that was 99% black, and in that 'not great enviornment" my parents raised 5 children, who all went to college, most of their own means,and were raised in the exact same 'awful hood' that the blacks were.

First, it is the culture. Their culture does not promote such behavior. Listen to Rap/Hip Hop, which , regardless if you can admit it or not, has a HUGE incluence on the youth, since most grow up without a father in the house, these Rappers are now role Models.

What are they promoting? 'getting dat green' "pimpin dem hos' killing cops, etc. Nothing really there other than negative things. Also, you have parents who may not care so much also. I am saying this in general, as I know that is not true in every case, but I have a unique experience here. I taught in an all White school, and in an all black school. Totally different.

Generally, White parents will not lay the blame of their childs failure at the feet of the teacher, however, black parents were always quick to drop the 'racist' bomb on me.

I will give you a great example. We were studying Europe, and in particular Germany. Since my parents were both born there, I had quite a few slides, and asked them, "you want to see what Germany is like" and they all wanted to.

I bring them in, and show probably 100 slides, and finally one girl says "Hey, where are all the black people in Germany"? I said "we dont have many there, its in Europe". In a matter of 5 seconds, screams of 'racist' popped up everywhere, and I was even getting calls from angry parents later in the week. It was a circus, and all because of some 'slight insult' that they felt.

Anotehr few examples, I was looking to get a job after I returned from the Gulf war, as I was unsure on college yet. I went to the postal service, filled out my application, and got a bonus 5 for being ex military. Cool right? The black guy next to me said "well, I get 10 for being black". Huh? really? "sure I do".

Now, I dont know if that is still true, but I checked into it, and back THEN it was true. I was horrified that I had to go to war to get 5 , and he got 10 for being born?

So, we have to ask ourselves, when does it end? Because, we can not keep going at the same pace, and hoping they will eventually 'catch up', as they are right now their own worse enemy. Their single parent homes have 100% destroyed what actually was a rather moral people.

Debat it until you are blue in the face, but they have to look in the mirror before they keep blaming others.

Life is not fair. Never has been. people are not all equal in abilities, fact. not everyone can do what i can do, and I can not do what others do. Fact of life. cant deal with that reality check, then you need to go jump off a bridge.

Stressedlines +1

@Stressedlines
Wordy, but very well-said. To answer your question, I think it all ends when the situation is deemed fair for minorities. I don't know about how effective AA is, but I'll defend the intentions.

Mainly, the environment of minorities is slightly detrimental to their road to success, whether it be the household, or social treatment. The idea of AA is to equalize this detriment and give minorities an equal playing ground.

I responded this way because you seem to be against the idea of AA, not the logistics of it. By the way, this isn't out of self-bias. I'm asian, and I was told AA was going to work against me. Lol.

Oh, I defend the intentions as well. I just think the implementation is patently unfair. If *all* other attributes are equal, give an edge to the minority. So, make the "points" be decimal points on the CC exam. Give the soldier a .4 advantage, the racial minority a .2 advantage, and the woman a .1 advantage.

Then all things being equal the black woman would get preference over the black man who would get preference over the white woman who would get preference over the white man. But the soldier who put his life on the line would get preference over all the others who weren't soldiers. It's a fairer system and novody can get more than .7 added to their score so somebody who was actually more highly qualified wouldn't get discriminated against.

I'll agree with you on this one. However, keep in mind how difficult it is to determine if "all other atributes are equal".

I do enjoy how AA opponents simultaneously insist that "life isn't fair" but then proceed to whine about how equal opportunity programs which enhance applicant pools for qualified unrepresented groups "aren't fair".

I'm not surprised that the "black people are lazy" crowd have nothing to go on but their personal anecdotes or "I pulled myself up by my bootstrap" stories. Facts, data, don't matter when you can gripe about how you know somebody who doesn't work as hard as you think you do.

Pity the mediocre white man, everybody is out to deprive him of his sense of entitlement.

"When does it end? Do you have a day/time or $$ amount needed for it to end?"

What ends? Equal opportunity programs? When employers stop refusing to even consider qualified minority/women candidates for positions, that's when. When people like you, who believe whites are simply better off because of their superior sense of racial civilization, disappear.

The points system was declared unconstitutional (as it pertains to education), and anyway unrepresented demographics was only one aspect of the points system. There were many many many other considerations.

AA opponents simply make up straw men and invent programs that don't exist.

As a white parent with a black child and a wife in human resources who's worked in a few major coprorations, I have a pretty unique look at this. I used to agree pretty firmly with Draug.

Now...

When my son was in a majority white school, they tried to pigeon hole him into special education and remove him from the classroom the majority of the day. There was an aide who straight up told him not to do the difficult work, she'd do it for him since he couldn't be expected to do the same level of work as other children. Now that he's in a more mixed school, he's in the honors class. Nothing significant has changed about his knowledge or work ethic in the intervening time. Just with how people let him use it.

Like it or not, this is the predominant way white people see black people, and you see it right here in this thread as well, a lot of "Well, if they'd just do more...I'm not really talking about all of them, but I'm talking about all of them." White people, on a whole, are not ready to accept that minorities can be their equal, and they might hold out this hollow idea of "I'm not talking about all of them" but really, they are talking about all of them.

My wife, in her job, has overseen plenty of minority hires, and really, what it often comes down to in the private sector is not a quota but the fact that having a diverse work force really does help you out. If everyone in a department has the same background, they're likely to have the same ideas on how to do what they do. A variety of ideas and exchange of ideas are immensely more productive. So minority candidates are favored for reasons other than quotas. It's not "we need x people of y ethnicity" so much as "this guy is different than our other 9 applicants in a way that might enrich our department." Yes, even if he IS less skilled.

As for the NAACP: it's a private organization that provides scholarships. You can go out and fund a Whitey McWhiterton scholarship all you want, and give it to the most mayonnaise sandwich eating person you can find. Because you can spend your private money however you want, and no one can restrict who your money for college is going to. But you haven't because you don't care enough about funding whites as well-off African Americans care about the people they're funding.

Putin. Stop, I never implied or even said they were lazy. I 100% put the blame on the culture that community has developed by itself, and has embraced it.

Are they not responsbile for their own actions? Certainly they must be at least responsbile for what they do?


I do not go around defending POS white people, so why should you defend POS anyone? A POS is a POS, let it get flushed..

it is why when I hear people blame black violent crime rates on poverty. PLEASEEEEEEE....Rape and Murder do not equate to a Povverty crime...ever

And as far as I know, most companies are EOE in this country, are they not?

Sacred, stop. I saw 2 black kids in my first school I taught, and they were not treated differently at all. They went to regular classes,. You find an example in one schol system and paint all whites with some damn broad brush. Please, you know this is not true.

When does AA end, that is what I asked. Tell me what criteria must be fulfilled in your might eyes, for it to be fulfilled, okay?

NAACP I believe gets Federal funding, does it not? it ceases being anything private at this point, and must adhere to Fedral laws at this point Save me the "NAACAP is holier than though" Nothing but a racist organization, notmuch better than the Klan in my eyes. They both race bait, and cause division.

No, NAACP is tax exempt, but does not get federal funding. Maybe you should do some research before you paint things with broad brushes. But I've seen these examples in other school districts too, in fact, I did a project in college a few years ago that did actual research on what impact race had on the educational experience, and the results I found were NOT atypical.

"You can go out and fund a Whitey McWhiterton scholarship all you want, and give it to the most mayonnaise sandwich eating person you can find. "

Um, no you can't. It is a charitable organization that gets tax breaks (like the NAACP doeS) and therefore must abide by federal anti-discrimination laws, which forbid *white* organizations (like the KKK as despicable as they are) from doing just that. As a result, the KKK (again despicable, not arguing that) can't get tax exempt status and offer scholarships up to white students because they are a "racist" organization, but the NAACP (a racist black organization) can. I'm not saying the KKK should be allowed to. Far from it. I'm saying the NAACP should have their tax exempt status stripped from them unless they offer a fair chance at those scholarships to all students regardless of race religion or creed. You accept federal money (a tax break is accepting the money) and you should be forced to be anti-discriminatory. On that, SD, you are incorrect, or at least comparing apples to oranges (federally recognized charity with tax breaks versus truly private organization with none).

Tax exempt *is* federally funded. Every other organization *must pay taxes*! Therefore they are getting the funding through the tax break.

You can give money for college to whoever you want for whatever reason you want.

But you can't get a tax break if you do it for racial reasons. That';s the point. The NAACP gets a tax break despite being racist. If I formed the NAAWP and gave scholarships only to whites, I would be denied tax exempt status, and rightfully so. So why do they get tax exempt status when they are the biggest racists on the whole fucking planet?!

Bigger than, say, Slobodan Milosevic or the Turkish government's treatment of Kurds?

The truth is, ethnic cleansings still happen worldwide, every day of the year. To call someone not giving money for college to people outside their ethnicity the "biggest racists on the whole fucking planet" is...pretty insane.

Yeah, it was extreme. How about the largest tax exempt racist organization i the US. Or the largest federally recognized racist organization in the US. Let just ask this question. Do you think the NAACP, by handing out scholarships to black only and specifically refusing to give them to whites, is a racist organization?