Casinos are in the business of stealing money from people... so if you've found a way to give them a taste of their own medicine, do it.

What do you mean by "at least 500no $10 bets" Also, why is your profit 750$? I don't quite see the math there.

If you assume you're going to lose $500 dollars, and spend $500 dollars on transport and drinks, then your profit is only $250, which equates to only $2.00 an hour - you can probably make more money going to your local college and collecting bottles and cans on Saturday and Sunday morning. The casino will love having you there to take your money!

@FA - thanks for advice

@santosh - the condition is that I make 500 $10 bets as a minimum. But as I will bet red on ever spin I would expect to break even as the green zero has been taken off the wheel. I therefore expect to break even on the bets gain $1250 in loyalty rewards and spend $500 on transpotation costs giving me a net profit of $750.

If your assumption about the $500 in bets is correct, then my calculations were based on my incorrect interpretation of the data. But, as is more often the case, you LOSE $500 because casinos are crooked and the house always wins, your numbers are incorrect.

@SGrabowski - thanks for advice but my math is sound. I expect to break even on the bets, whether or not I do is irrelevant. I will make 1250 in loyalty and lose 500 in transport giving a profit of 750. I'm aware that this isn't a great pay rate but that doesn't form part of the moral dilemma.

@SGrabowski - for clarity it is 500 x $10 bets - I could in fact bet $10 on red and $10 on black on the same spin for the purposes of this dilemma. I expect to break even on the bets, the casino couldn't stop that element of the dilemma.

@Maniac - Ah I see now. Yes, the math appears to be sound - your expected profit is 750$. And yes, you could easily bet on both, so that is your exact profit, and not just the expected profit.

I find it strange that they're removing the maximum payout ratio from the wheel. In fact, if they re-adjust all the payouts so the expected gains on 1$ are equal again, then the wheel on average makes nothing, which is terrible for the casino.

Don't underestimate how ballsy some people get when they're in casinos. People in casinos often make stupid bets once they're in there, or feed slots until their bucket is empty. The casino recognizes that some people will be smart enough to make money off of them. That's always the case. But they're willing to lose that money because most people at the casino act like crack-addled ferrets during their stay.

@SD I suppose the alcohol they serve customers helps too.

@Maniac : If they have the scheme in place, then I would think they
know you're making money off of them, but they're okay with it in the sense
that having lots of people over

1. Takes clients away from competitors if there are any.
2. An apparently popular casino probably attracts more people.

So, they're probably paying you for 'advertising', if I may. I don't
see why you ought to refuse it.

The casino is a corporation, which in stark contrast to US law is actually NOT a person. If a corporation or a business's policies are such that a 'buyer' (in this case of the utility which comes from playing at a casino) can actually walk away with a profit, then that is entirely the fault of the corporation/business and it not only can but *should* be exploited: after all, someone else may have noticed the loophole as well, and you would be remiss to allow someone else to exploit it but not exploit it yourself.

"most people at the casino act like crack-addled ferrets during their stay."

We have *got* to get .SIGs on this site!

@Maniac - They loyatly scheme is soft dollars. It will be "redeemable" towards buffets and dinners and such which they over charge for to begin with. And they *know* the majority of the players will be tempted to play other games that give them theadvantage and will try to play to make money even on the roulette wheel and will therefore try to play trends or guess when a trend is going to break.

But considering I know no casino is giving up their edge (taking off the green 00), you must have another similar situation in mind and the question is, is it still a casino or is it something else in life. Your morale dilema will change depending on the target. Casino's are out to steal as much as they legally can. Don't do anything illegal, but "steal" all you can from a casino. And no, counting cards is *not* illegal, but hacking slots or using a "look ahead" camera hidden in something on the table to see the dealers cards is.

@Draugnar - nope the loyalty is hard cash. You are right to assume they haven't taken out the zero but without giving too much away and to keep things simple assume that they have.

It seems many of you would 'go for it' - would you also tell your friends and turn up en masse?

No. Nothing ruins a good thing like getting too many people involved in it.

I would tell a few very close ones with the agreement it stay in our "circle", but not a large group. If the exploit gets around and the casino finds it is cutting into their profits too much, they'll shut the program down.

I would exercise caution, though, because it seems to me like you're focused on a break even scheme that might not actually break even. Casinos thrive on convincing you there's a way to break even.

My friends wouldn't shut up about it if I told them. I'd start exploiting it and use my newfound source of wealth to buy rounds when we're out or something along those lines to make up for it.

@Maniac - check your PMs. I'm curious about the actual details of the game in question. I don't care about which casino, but I know the games and know where the casinos edge is in all of them.

@FA, you said "Casinos are in the business of stealing money from people" - no, they provide entertainment for a rather pricey bill. And people choose to pay. This is not stealing. Thanks for trying.

@Maniac: I'd say try (d) + (a) - advise the casino that they have made what appears to be an error, and if they do not object, go for it.

You are not obliged to tell your friends, if you can work (via phone/wireless pad/laptop) while betting then all the better.

I doubt you can work while betting. Most casinos prohibit the use of electronic devices at the table. They make you forfeit nay hand you are in and turn away from the table just to answer a phone call and absolutely no texting.

And casinos are in business of taking money. Sure, they provide entertainment, but it is an addictive entertainment and they know it. They have started advertising "responsible" gambling when showing poker events on TV out of pressure from the government, but they'd just as soon you get hooked. By the entertainment logic, then your local drug dealer is providing escapism/entertainment when he sells someone a dime bag. His goal is to get you hooked so you keep coming back. their goal is the same.

As far as 500 $10 bets... One spin is all it takes. Put 250 $10 bets on red and 250 $10 bets on black.

I'd do it over more spins, because since the zero isn't gone, you'd be taking a total bath if it came up on that spin.

I was talking about in his perfect game with no Green 00. Yeah, you'd want to spread it out in reality.

I would still make 2 $10 bets on the wheel (1 on black and 1 on red) just to ensure that each time you break even. Although the statistics say that you'll break even, this is next to never the case. Once you've played thousands of times, you'll be closer to that 50/50 but you'll probably never see it in actuality. The odds of a 50/50 split, even at the end of 1 day of 500 bets is less than 4% (3.57% actually).

On a true roulette game, you *will* lose if you always bet on Black and Red for the same amount because Green 00 will come up eventually.

The question is, how much should you put on 0/00 every time to mitigate those loses...

Once upon a time, in my student days, I actually was able to beat the casino by counting cards at blackjack (ref. Thorpe Beat the Dealer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_O._Thorp). Indeed, a good friend, who was better at it than me, had to resort to disguises in order not to get ejected from casinos because he was on their ''cheater blacklist''. Of course it was not cheating but simply playing the game. Then the casinos introduced multiple decks, automatic shufflers etc. as counter measures.
It did occur to us, however, to wonder if it was worth it. That is to sit in a room without clocks and daylight, surrounded by people desperately ''doing their brains in'' and watching all the time to see if we were about to be chucked out. We came to the view that these were miserable decadent places and I, for one, haven't been inside one for at least 20 years. I would advise anyone else to similarly avoid them.

@ful - Congrats on "escaping", but I enjoy a good poker game and the casino here (Hollywood in Lawrencburg, IN) is the only good poker game around. I have been known to make more in 2 hours at a poker table than in 2 days of going to work.

I believe I've been to that casino, because a massive blizzard delayed a trip to New Orleans and I couldn't find much else to do on Christmas Eve.

@draug, I like poker too, but 5 card stud and draw rather than Holdem, does that make me a luddite?
Have you ever heard of three card brag? It is a bit like the English version of poker and is great fun especially when you go blind. Another great gambling game is backgammon, but the Greeks/Cypriots are so good at it that is usually best to avoid playing with them!

@SD, when was it? If too long agao, then it was Argosy. The Hollywood was a new boat that Penn Gmaing built to replace the aging Argosy. It is *huge* and has a world class poker room. They just had their second annual WPT event and are now the sponsors of the Indiana State Poker Championship. They've been around just over two years under the Hollywood name.

@ful, I've never tried three card brag, but I enjoy playing 7 card stud (no hole cards, but some of your hand is displayed for everyone to see) and draw is fun for a home game. I love when someone takes 4 cards and everyone chuckles "we know who has an Ace!" I also enjoy Razz - worst hand wins and 23457 rainbow is the best/worst hand you can get. Lately I've been getting into PLO Hi-Lo (no card higher than an 8 on the low). You can Razz play or traditional PLO play to split the pot, and possibly take the whole pot if you can get the worst hand below 8 high or nobody else has a hand below 8 high.