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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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President Eden (2750 D)
24 Jul 11 UTC
How the hell does one succeed as Turkey?
I've done well as Turkey before, but rarely ever in high class play and never in high class play when I haven't jumped in mid-game.
70 replies
Open
cpman (0 DX)
28 Jul 11 UTC
Please Join this Long Term Game
Hello all! I would like to ask you to join this game: http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=64615
Thanks!

13 replies
Open
1brucben (60 D)
27 Jul 11 UTC
Lets take back this forum liberals!!
are we gonna let these conservative retards take over this forum? Liberals post your ideas here. comservative ideas will be deleted
44 replies
Open
MaxVax (5610 D)
28 Jul 11 UTC
could someone pick France? - low point game, good practice.
Could someone pick up France here?
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=63317&msgCountryID=7&rand=61916
1 reply
Open
Menteith (171 D)
27 Jul 11 UTC
Newbie Question - Draw/Pause/Cancel Votes
I've seen the voting buttons, but I can't find anything on-site about how they work. What happens if you vote Draw/Pause/Cancel?
7 replies
Open
dD_ShockTrooper (1199 D)
28 Jul 11 UTC
Can anyone defend Austria when being attacked by Italy, Russia and Turkey?
Can anyone defend the idea that a "power" can produce a better situation for Austria by diminishing the attackers' SC control in exchange for increased unexpected imposition of diplomatic pressure on the attackers?
6 replies
Open
1brucben (60 D)
27 Jul 11 UTC
LETS SEE HOW MANY POSTS WE CAN GET ON THIS THREAD!!!
JUST POST RANDOM CRAP!!!! IT WILL BE FUN!!!
9 replies
Open
1brucben (60 D)
27 Jul 11 UTC
Politics on a Diplomacy website??? WTF
why are so many people spending hours making stupid points about politics on a diplomacy forum???? TALK ABOUT DIPLOMACY PLEASE. I agree to shutup my liberal trap if those conservatives do also.
6 replies
Open
☺ (1304 D)
27 Jul 11 UTC
Can anyone defend SPARTAAAA?
Leonidas can.
12 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
27 Jul 11 UTC
My partial departure
See inside
21 replies
Open
Fasces349 (0 DX)
26 Jul 11 UTC
Can anybody defend stealing from the wealthy
Something that has always confused me is why people say taxing the wealthy is fair. How can one justify governments taking quadruple the money on those who earn twice as much as the middle class? How is it fair?
149 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
The Master of PR Disaster, Glenn Beck Does It Again...Says Norway's Victims=Hitler Youth
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2011/07/glenn-beck-hits-a-new-low-compares-norway-victims-to-hitler-youth.html

I mean...even for HIM, that has to be one of the lowest and most disgusting utterances this side of Jerry Falwell's blaming 9/11 on gays...
11 replies
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Riphen (198 D)
25 Jul 11 UTC
Are you ready for some Football!!!?
Yes finally after 136 days in a lockout we can finally watch as are favorite teams start to select free agents! Who is excited!! ME! ME! ME!

30 replies
Open
King98 (0 DX)
27 Jul 11 UTC
Live Game
I don't see many live-games going on... I find long term games boring, so I hosted my own http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=64593
0 replies
Open
SantaClausowitz (360 D)
27 Jul 11 UTC
The Prison Norwegian Killer May Spend The Rest of His 21 Years In
I'm not a crime and punishment sort of guy, but this might be a bit much
18 replies
Open
Putin33 (111 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
Dear Francophobes
Any regrets about your rush to hang DSK?
117 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
27 Jul 11 UTC
Chris Hedges: Hitchens, Harris and "Secular Fundamentalism Caused Oslo Attacks?
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/fundamentalism_kills_20110726/
Quite possibly the WORST PROFESS IONAL ESSAY I HAVE EVER READ. Stylistically lackluster at best and completely banal at worst, with an emhpasis on terms poorly defined and adjectives poorly used, it's message is confused and WRONG--WHEN has Hitchens had "twisted yearning for the apocalypse and belief in the “chosen people?" UTTER STUPIDITY...
11 replies
Open
Agent K (0 DX)
27 Jul 11 UTC
Dubloon Challenge
Nimen hao,

Join this game to acquire dubloons beyond imagination.
1 reply
Open
doofman (201 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
Doofman returns!
That is all
16 replies
Open
SergeantCitrus (257 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
Can anybody defend baby eating?
I mean they make a good stew, but the meat is too stringy.
34 replies
Open
Fasces349 (0 DX)
26 Jul 11 UTC
Obama's Speech on the Debt Crisis
What are peoples thoughts on it?
112 replies
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denis (864 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
Vanguard
I've been watching quite a bit of this TV documentary show, Vanguard, on CurrentTV. Just would like to know if anybody else has seen it. And start a discussion about the topics below.
3 replies
Open
taylornottyler (100 D)
25 Jul 11 UTC
Disease - To eradicate, or not to eradicate
Given all the yicky microbes bent on killing millions each year, why don't we have disease eradication as a higher priority?
32 replies
Open
1brucben (60 D)
24 Jul 11 UTC
TripleA
For those of you who love strategy games like diplomacy, there is a free software program called TripleA. almost any time a day you can find 20 users online to play Axis and Allies games. My user name is Colonel_Klink and here is the download site. http://sourceforge.net/projects/triplea/files/ it includes a link to the official forums too.
4 replies
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obiwanobiwan (248 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
Welcome To The Obi Factor! (And I'm Inviting ALL the Conservatives In On This One!)
We have a great crop of crazed posts and threads that just seem to keep popping up in this last hour on how AWFUL the Democratic Party is and how the GOP and the Republican Way is, of course, the ONLY Way!
So--krellin! Tettleton! Conservative Man! And any others! Come on in and explain your positions HERE, in the concise No-S*** Zone! THIS IS THE FACTOR!
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why not look in the 15 other threads on this first page alone where they say the same thing over and over
Kingdroid (219 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
inb4 I find new people to mute.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
So, my first question for my guests:

WHY is Big Government a bad thing and, in an age of globalization and with the enormous breadth of the US's power and needs, how would you manage the largest military in the world, one of the largest economy's in the world, nuclear arsenals, and the role of being one of the two great superpowers of the world with a SMALL government?

Oh--

And keep in mind all those lovely deficits and debts nthat our large amount of military spending has produced...how are you going to fix THAT as well?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
@Santa:

Because I'd like to see if any of them have either the guts to show when specifically called out for their ideas--as liberals such as Putin and myself have--and if they can respond coherently and intelligently.

If they do EITHER I'll be amazed... ;)
King Atom (100 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
Fascism!
SacredDigits (102 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
For the second question, my plan involves a tax on Hamlet mentions. If taxed 25 cents per, obi would take on the whole debt himself.
SacredDigits (102 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
I'm a liberal, mostly, but if you really want considered answers, I can give them.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
+1 to King Atom and SD. XD

Mr. Atom, do you care yo expand on your policy (like, say, into Poland, perhaps?) :p

And THAT IT SHOULD COME TO THIS, SacredDigits! ;)
Fasces349 (0 DX)
26 Jul 11 UTC
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL


Ok, to answer your question:
WHY is Big Government a bad thing.
Because big governments are less efficient then small governments.

"in an age of globalization"
Which is shit and should be ended

"with the enormous breadth of the US's power and needs"
Which is provided by corporations not government

"how would you manage the largest military in the world"
GO CITY STATE DOCTRINE!

"one of the largest economy's in the world"
GO CITY STATE DOCTRINE!

"one of the largest economy's in the world"
Fasces349, support nuclear non-proliferation since 2006.

"and the role of being one of the two great superpowers"
Who's the other? China and....

"with a SMALL government?"
Obi claiming that lots of small governments can't do what a large government can is simply bullshit. Every claims that Singapore and Norway and Luxemburg and all the other puny European states are only rich cause they are small. Well here's food for thought, if they are only rich cause they are small, why do we need big.

Statistically speaking bigger governments have lower GDP per Capita then small governments and as well have bigger problems with managing their budget, having an efficient and representative government and have titanic spending.

48% of the US GDP is government spending, yeah, Capitalist my ass.

"And keep in mind all those lovely deficits and debts nthat our large amount of military spending has produced...how are you going to fix THAT as well?"
Our recruit policy has to be changed, America has such an inflated military budget because there are no requirements to get into the army (besides age) if there were requirements to get into the army then the US would have a deflated budget. Also NUKES! We only have enough nukes to blow up the world 4 times over, we wont be safe until that number reaches 6...
Also Afghanistan, Libya and all the crap places in the Middle East, IGNORE THEM! THEY ARE NOT IMPORTANT! As long as you can still get the oil out of those regions safely there is no need to go to war.

Fasces does not like big military budgets. He doesn't like big budgets in any category.
Ruisdael (1529 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
Government spending as a share of GDP is below 40%. Where'd you see 48%?
Fasces349 (0 DX)
26 Jul 11 UTC
43% that was a typo, my bad
Fasces349 (0 DX)
26 Jul 11 UTC
but still how can someone support such a high government expense and not call themselves socialist?
Draugnar (0 DX)
26 Jul 11 UTC
If pro is the opposite con, what is the opposite of progress? Congress! Both sides are so fucked up, there is no answer to anything forthcoming from either side.
Fasces349 (0 DX)
26 Jul 11 UTC
I agree with Draug
SacredDigits (102 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
We've also stopped building nukes and are getting rid of the ones we have. We'll have less nukes than we did in the 50's pretty soon.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
Ah!

Fasces!

Glad to have you on the show!

Now, in response to your respinse, we have just a few quick responses of our own that...well, you're point's confused us a bit:
WHY is Big Government a bad thing.
Because big governments are less efficient then small governments."

OK, explain why, please...yes...no? No explanation? That's all you ahve there? Well...that's not really a very strong position...I mena, you've given one sentence and haven't backed it up with anything...at all...

"in an age of globalization"
Which is shit and should be ended"

Well...I'm sorry, Fasces, but you can't just shrug off the age we live in, say it's terrible, and have that solve the problem...we ARE in a global economy, and no amount of head-shaking and name-calling is going to change that, I'm afraid...

""how would you manage the largest military in the world"
GO CITY STATE DOCTRINE!

"one of the largest economy's in the world"
GO CITY STATE DOCTRINE!"

GREAT!

NOW we seem to be back on track!

Oh, good, for a moment there, Fasces, I thought you were going to make a completely ad hominem arguemtn with no evidence whatsoever and nothing to support your position and just shout one-liners at the rest of us as if they were self-evident truths wehn in fact they were just empty one-liners with no explanation or substance behind them meant to make you sound smarter than your really are and--

Oh.

...

OH...

No explanation for those, either?

...

Yeah, folks, we'll be right back after this break, but when we come back, we'll continue our converation with Mr. Fasces, at which point...umm...hopefully he'll have more to say than empty-one-liners-with-no-substance and be able to articulate his point better than a ten year old repeating his parents as a parrot does his master--

THIS is the Obi Factor!
Fasces349 (0 DX)
26 Jul 11 UTC
"OK, explain why, please...yes...no? No explanation? That's all you ahve there? Well...that's not really a very strong position...I mena, you've given one sentence and haven't backed it up with anything...at all..."
If I said grass is green would you expect me to post evidence? When something is so factual it can't be disputed one rarely needs to post evidence to it.

"Well...I'm sorry, Fasces, but you can't just shrug off the age we live in, say it's terrible, and have that solve the problem...we ARE in a global economy, and no amount of head-shaking and name-calling is going to change that, I'm afraid..."
we have a simply solution to saving the world from globalization and its so obvious even the markets are supporting it, but the US government is intervening.

"Oh, good, for a moment there, Fasces, I thought you were going to make a completely ad hominem arguemtn with no evidence whatsoever and nothing to support your position and just shout one-liners at the rest of us as if they were self-evident truths wehn in fact they were just empty one-liners with no explanation or substance behind them meant to make you sound smarter than your really are and--

Oh.

...

OH...

No explanation for those, either?"
I love how you totally ignore the parts that actually had substance. lol

"Yeah, folks, we'll be right back after this break, but when we come back, we'll continue our converation with Mr. Fasces, at which point...umm...hopefully he'll have more to say than empty-one-liners-with-no-substance and be able to articulate his point better than a ten year old repeating his parents as a parrot does his master--"
If I am still awake and feel like posting in an hour, you'll get your substance. But until the, I will post one line answers.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
Well, when you start your argument with empty one-liners and lay the foundation that way, Fasces, any substance you might have falls right through the floor...
SacredDigits (102 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
Alright. Check it out.

"WHY is Big Government a bad thing and, in an age of globalization and with the enormous breadth of the US's power and needs, how would you manage the largest military in the world, one of the largest economy's in the world, nuclear arsenals, and the role of being one of the two great superpowers of the world with a SMALL government?"

Ever hear the saying "Too many cooks spoil the soup?" That's what we have going on now. There are federal agencies that handle things that are also handled at the state level. There are people doing government research into the most unimportant crap imaginable: I knew a guy who had a government grant to research the statistics of shuffling playing cards. No one's saying "Let's cut it all down to one dude" (except Fasces, and despite him saying "we" and "us" he's Canadian). It can just be smaller than it is. There exist contractors who work for drug companies who approximate FDA tests, and these contractors could easily handle the actual FDA workloads at a cheaper rate than having an office full of full-timers with that sweet, sweet government insurance. There's simply a lot of fat that can be cut off, because everybody has historically made new departments and agencies commensurate to their whim and frankly, some of those whims need to die. We'd still have the ability to effectively operate, in fact, more ability to effectively operate.

"And keep in mind all those lovely deficits and debts nthat our large amount of military spending has produced...how are you going to fix THAT as well?"

The first step is to increase military spending.

You heard that right.

We need to end the quagmires in Iraq and Afghanistan. Both areas are calling for more troops, and we keep trying to cut more troops out to be expedient. It's more expedient to send more guys in short term, get it controlled, and move all of them back home. That way it's not a constant drain on the wallet, we pay it in one lump sum, we're out, it's over.
rayNimagi (375 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
"The first step is to increase military spending."
That is the most laughable thing I've heard in this thread. Are you saying we're supposed to defeat a terrorist network that operates in 50+ countries by "taking control" of just two? American troops in Middle Eastern countries causes hate towards America.
"WHY is Big Government a bad thing"

Explain 'big government.' A state with extensive social welfare, for example, is often touted as 'big government.' There is no Constitutional provision for an extensive social welfare state. The United States government is subservient to the United States Constitution; it is the contract by which the United States government was created and the one by which it must abide. By and large what is referenced as 'big government' is not in accordance with the Constitution.

"and, in an age of globalization and with the enormous breadth of the US's power and needs"

The United States Constitution must be upheld no matter what era, epoch or age in which we find ourselves residing. The age of globalization neither renders obsolete nor finds incompatible Constitutional ideals or statutes. The two superficially-conflicting ideas of a 'small government'-style Constitution and a global era are not contradictory.

"how would you manage the largest military in the world, one of the largest economy's in the world, nuclear arsenals, and the role of being one of the two great superpowers of the world with a SMALL government?"

For one, downsize the military. Cut military spending substantially. The United States can still be the pre-eminent military power it wants to be in absence of a substantial portion of its "defense" budget. We can defend this country with a substantially smaller military, and we can even defend the sea lanes and air space for international shipping without the majority of our budget. Most of our budget goes to finance unnecessary and extremely costly wars -- wars which, on top of the obvious drawbacks of making enemies worldwide, losing valuable American lives and spending valuable American tax revenue, are not even Constitutional themselves.

Nuclear arsenals as well. The line by the neoconservative war hawks that says "If we downsize our arsenal first, everyone else will just break their end of the deal!" is ludicrous. We can destroy the world several times over -- if not literally cause catastrophic damage to every corner of the world, at least wipe out so many people with nuclear weapons that the world as we know it would cease to exist. What's the point? Even in an absolutely insane scenario where we REALLY decided we wanted to destroy the world, you only need to be able to do that once. And honestly... when are we ever going to use nuclear weapons? We need some to keep anyone else from getting stupid ideas, sure, but we don't need... what is it, 5000? That's absurd.

The economy does not need the kind of heavy central management that 'big government' implies. Keynesian economic models -- the kind which this country has by and large followed since the early 20th century -- were not, by Keynes's own admission, blueprints for long-term economic management. And yet that is exactly what we have done. Furthermore, government interference in the economy is Constitutionally limited.

Perhaps the most important aspect of the economy that small government would fix is the Federal Reserve System. This largely-unaudited behemoth is responsible for the boom and bust cycle that often gets blamed on "free-market capitalism" by artificially adjusting interest rates. It is also the party responsible for inflation, which can only occur with an increase in the money supply. A true small government would be one without the Fed, and would be one with a much better managed economy.

Of course, it doesn't stop there economically. Corporate welfare has to go as well. Corporations do not deserve any special favors from government. That is not free-market capitalism as a small government would have it; that is egregiously pro-big business, and not small government. That is big government of the right, not of the left... but big government all the same.

The tax code needs a lot of reform as well. Though it would technically be a "tax increase," I very much support the Democrats' efforts to close tax loopholes. I would probably argue for tax cuts once the loopholes are closed and the tax code is simplified, because I suspect that when it's all said and done we can lower taxes on everyone. But it is definitely wrong to raise taxes on everyone and then leave loopholes only one sector of society can exploit.

"And keep in mind all those lovely deficits and debts that our large amount of military spending has produced...how are you going to fix THAT as well?"

You fix your debt problem by creating and maintaining budget surpluses on non-debt spending. That is, make sure you're taking in more money than you spend on other programs, and put the rest toward paying your debts. I find it interesting that the challenge is posed as though small government is the form of government between small and big that would supposedly have trouble with spending. Small government inherently spends less than big government.

You fix the wars by getting out ASAP, and downsizing the military substantially. That takes a lot of pressure off of government trying to make ends meet. You then cut spending, reform the tax code and see where that gets you. New taxes should not be taken off the table as an option, but should be an instrument of last resort once your spending has been cut. Tax cuts and hikes should both not be handed out unequivocally but should be decided upon at the end of the process. You adjust your revenue flow after you reduce your budget down to essentials, and if you happen to have surplus, you decide whether or not to cut taxes or increase spending. If you happen to have deficits, you raise taxes before putting us any further in debt.

===

I believe that the above blueprint is a blueprint that is in line with true small government philosophy as a conservative would have it, and yet one that is also sensible and recognizes the reality of the situation we are in right now.
SacredDigits (102 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
It's not the troops so much as the fact that they're not equipped to do anything that causes the hate. If we pull all the troops out of Afghanistan, right now, it becomes the biggest opium supplier you could ever imagine and a larger problem than when we came in. If we pulled everyone out of Iraq right now it continues to destabilize and becomes a bleeding sore on the landscape.

If we set up a framework for future lawful leaders, and not just puppets, but states built from those countries, then we can say, "Remember when you said we were wrong to go into Iraq? Look, it's a functioning country and probably nicer to you than Saddam who invaded Kuwait, another Middle Eastern country." Right now, if we left, we have to say, "Yup, you're right, fucked it up."
King Atom (100 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
@Draugnar: Best thing I've heard all summer.

Anyways, I guess if I were to expand on my point, (which I was being completely serious on) the government in America has been polarized to the point where we are being thrusted into a brand new world and the GOP can barely slow us down to the point where we don't collapse. At this point, we either need to temporarily get back to a stable and conservative government (that would of course favor the building of arms) or go all the way through with this "liberal" thing and fall flat on our face. We've reached the frightening state where if we push any harder in either direction, we will collapse. But if we go all the way for the Radical side, then yes our economy will worsen. Nevertheless, we will be rid of the race for arms and nukes will naturally be gotten rid of due to popular desire. Essentially, we should make the move forward so that we can begin rebuilding.

As a disclaimer, I do not in any way condone the actions of the United States government in the past five decades. The only reason why I am suggesting this is because it will provide the best way to 'fix' this god-forsaken country. And it will allow some temporary weakness in the structure of America where some random dictator might be able to TAKE OVER! I am waiting.

This seems like a good time...
Anyone want to join my nation? I'm in the middle of making preparations to declare independence!
King Atom (100 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
Talk of Middle East now. NUKE those bastards!
rayNimagi (375 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
"[Globalization]"
It's happening. It can't be reversed. Isolationism cannot succeed when the country has population of 300 million.

"[Big government is less efficient than localized government]"
True.

"CITY STATE DOCTRINE"
That doesn't usually work out so well. Remember the Warring States Period in China? Remember Europe any time between the Hellenic Greeks and WWII?

Small city states are always competing, and often fighting with each other. These small quarrels stopped after economic interdependence was achieved.
SacredDigits (102 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
I wish I hadn't posted before President Eden, because I was (as stated above it) not really advocating my personal viewpoints but trying to answer the questions as if I were a somewhat sensible conservative. I'll continue to defend them, though.
Filling in until you could find one? ;)
SacredDigits (102 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
Exactly. It's like when you go to play soccer and no one wants to be the goalie.
Mafialligator (239 D)
26 Jul 11 UTC
Ah. It's actually really nice to see a thread with political discussion that isn't just entirely dominated by right wing propaganda, with TC and krellin just shouting everyone else down. I can't believe I'm saying this, but obiwanobiwan + 1.
Fasces349 (0 DX)
26 Jul 11 UTC
I agree with every point President Eden said...
I thought Pres was a lefty, but I guess i am wrong...

"@Draugnar: Best thing I've heard all summer."
hey, I mentioned that last month...

"Talk of Middle East now. NUKE those bastards!"
Might as well put them to good use...

"It's happening. It can't be reversed. Isolationism cannot succeed when the country has population of 300 million."
When did I say isolation? I just mean I think out unions are preventing any labour from getting done here, which is the main reason why all the jobs are moving to China. Globalization will only help countries with large labour based populations...

"True."
you see obi, even your socialist buddies are agreeing that small government is more efficient. Before debating politics you might want to learn a little more about basic economics.

"That doesn't usually work out so well. Remember the Warring States Period in China? Remember Europe any time between the Hellenic Greeks and WWII?"
Ok, so I guess democrcay worked in Athe... Op nope it only sorta working in the modern world. As time moves on, economic and political policies should to. Neo-liberalism wouldn't have worked back in the warring states period...

Now that we have country unions such as EU and UN wars fought over land are effectively obsolete...

"I wish I hadn't posted before President Eden, because I was (as stated above it) not really advocating my personal viewpoints but trying to answer the questions as if I were a somewhat sensible conservative. I'll continue to defend them, though."
Well consider it this way, would you have posted at all had eden posted first?

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57 replies
thatwasawkward (4690 D(B))
22 Jul 11 UTC
Drunken Diplomacy
I'd like to set up a live game for alcoholics at some point in the future. Every time you gain or lose a SC, you take a shot. Every time the year changes, you take a shot. Every time a nation is eliminated, you chug. The idea is that as the war goes on, you become more and more "drunk" with power... only for real.
40 replies
Open
Babak (26982 D(B))
21 Jul 11 UTC
Buckeye Game Fest XII (FTF dip Tournament)
Thursday 13th October 2011 - Sunday 16th October 2011
Columbus, Ohio, United States
Contact: Thomas Haver ([email protected])
Website: http://www.buckeyegamefest.com/
4 replies
Open
gigantor (404 D)
25 Jul 11 UTC
Draws vs. Cancels
I just set up my first live game for months, as I have not had a whole lot of spare time recently. However, I was disappointed to see Turkey NMR in Spring 1901, Russia in Autumn and finally Italy in builds. More inside.
4 replies
Open
dexter morgan (225 D(S))
22 Jul 11 UTC
An honest question for Christians regarding trinity
Trinity - god being one but three - has always and will always be something that I find impossible to swallow... but, for those who believe in it, it occurred to me that it is a model consistent with other Christian beliefs in a way that I hadn't realized before... I have a question about this...
170 replies
Open
Indybroughton (3407 D(G))
26 Jul 11 UTC
A coastal question:
Fleet in Constan; Fleet in Bulg north coast. Can the two swap places:
Con-Bulg south coast; Bulg north coast - Con.
6 replies
Open
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