Really, if Obama's going to keep his support, he'd better do something more than wag his finger at Mubarak.

I'm not suggesting troops or anything, but a statement, say, "Stop beating down your people and vacate the premises or the US stops footing the 1.5 BILLION dollar bill!" would be nice...

On the personal side, I sure hope the anti-Mubaraks can hang on and don't break as a result of this violence, they've got to finish what they've started, they deserve to be free, and if Egypt's revolution succeeds, who knows, the feeling might just spread throughout the Arab world.

@Jack_Klein:

There's non-interference and then there's being a "defender of freedom and democracy" while doing NOTHING to help those who are fighting for their freedom from opression.

Again, no need to send soldiers and lose American lives, but that monetary threat or--GASP!--a package deal with other Western allies ALL calling for Mubarak to leave--America working WITH allies, what a concept!--would be nice to see...

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

5 minutes ago from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698):

1555: The White House says it "deplores and condemns the violence that is taking place in Egypt, and we are deeply concerned about attacks on the media and peaceful demonstrators". It adds: "We repeat our strong call for restraint."

Yeah, they just said that on AlJazeera English streaming live...

It's looking more and more like all these thousands of "pro-Mubarak" supporters were state police in civilian clothing...beating his own people...on horseback...and throwing Cocktails.

Nice...

Now it looks like one of the sides is smashing some large flat stones from the street apart...

I bet they start throwing them :/

according to bbc, the pro-mubarak forces want stability, and the chance to organize before muby is removed from office, not the power vaccuum that will occur if he simply up and leaves in the middle of the night. al jazeera is a fanatical islamic jihadist propaganda network. it's no suprise they would report that. they want instability so the muslim brotherhood can create a state governed by sharia law.

i'll think for myself and go on the belief that the "pro-mubarak" demonstrations started out as an attempt to settle down the anti-muby demonstraters and allow for a smoother transition of power, but were taken advantage of by those who stand to lose the most once muby is gone. the riot police would certainly be one of those groups.

that muby pays people to break up demonstrations doesn't help matters. perhaps my above thought was short sighted. it's a shit sandwich no matter how you slice it.

You should be smarter than that, obiwanobiwan. Obama has already made it very clear that Mubarak must start the transition to a new regime without him. It's clear the US is on the "side" of the protesters in that Mubarak time as pharaoh is up, it's just a matter of who runs the country next. Without more information about what will replace him in the interim and the extent of the Islamist influence on the protests it would be wildly irresponsible to do more. Obama has handled this pretty well and is doing better every day.

Also obiwanobiwan, aren't you a Zionist? The knee-jerk-get-Mubarak-out-now-omg-he's-so mean response you advocate would be incredibly dangerous for Israel. For thirty years they've had nothing to worry about on their southern border, but with an unstable Egypt and a Jordan possibly having a similar fate the entirety of Israel's strategic posture has to be altered. A scared Israel and loose Islamists on its borders is a recipe for another general war in the Middle East. If the transition in Egypt is not handled correctly (and correctly means democracy, let's be clear) and in an organized manner then there's really no limit to the problems the WORLD, not just the US could be facing in the near future.

@trip:

Well, the pro-side was the side with the camels and horses riding right into the crowd of the antis, and some pros have now been found out to have been government police.

So we have the Police riding into a crowd of demonstrators, killing them, and masquerading--at least some of them--as normal civilians...

I'm not saying it's black-and-white ehre, but unless you ahve some better evidence to show the antis rather than the pros to be the ones who started the violence...

@Invictus:

I'm for Egyptian freedom done properly, of course.

But I will not accept the argument that stability trumps any kind of civil rights, or that the people of Egypt should have to deal with Mubarak as "the lesser of two evils." There shouldn't BE that choice, no one should ahve to decide between a "lifetime president" adn outright chaos, and handled by the people and OVERSEEN by larger powers capable of keeping the situation from becoming a destructive vacuum--internally, the military, which has remained neutral thus far, could begin to crack down and impose military rule while a government is being set up, and then other powers could ahve their influence as well to help the people.

Obama IS handling this comparatively well, and to his credit IS taking a harder-line stance, I'm glad to see that...if fighting continues I'd again like to see him threaten to cut of US aid--and see how many REAL pro-Mubaraks want him or even him for a few months rather than military rule while a new system is set up and that nice little 1 and half billion dollars the US grants.

As for Israel--yes, I am a Zionist and care for Israel's safety, but I care for it because I'm proud that my people got a homeland after eyars of being persecuted; if the cost of security in Israel is an ANOTHER entire race being persecuted and living in a totalitarian state, then that's the time to gamble a bit with security. The treaty between Israel and Egypt is mutually beneficial, so it likely won't go away even with an new leader that was not as inclined as Mubarak was, but of course than can be complications; as a result I would like, and have said I would like, to see the US and, yes, Israel now try and HELP the people of Egypt set up their government and keep order.

But again, I won't defend Israel just because it's Israel--I don't agree with everything she does, I don't agree totally with her treatment of the Palestinians, for example, and while I certainly have more of a natural interest in Israel than Egypt, I'm not going to tell the people of the latter nation they have to wait and suffer and perhaps give this dictator more time to pull something just so Israel can have a bit more peace of mind.

Israel AND the US need to take this opportunity to show THEY can be the great friends of Egypt in the Middle East RATHER than these totalitarian regimes OR these terror and brotehrhood groups.

if you actually think the USA is always on the side of pro-democracy activists, you're dead wrong.

not that we wouldn't *like* to be or anything. we just are often aren't. at all.

USA supporting Saudi Royal House since 1950, kind of shows that USA supports the side that is siding with USA first and foremost

@ obi: if was definately the pro side (at least the police and citizens paid by the govt to break up the demonstrators) that escalated the situation. it seemed earlier in the day that citizens who simply want order restored were being lumped into that group.

"if you actually think the USA is always on the side of pro-democracy activists, you're dead wrong."

QFT

@Thucy:

Oh, I know the US has supported it's fair share of dictators--I'd just like to see that trend reverse here for a change so we can, well, you know, actually live up to our self-appointed "Free World Police" title...maybe it's optimistic, but if the Egyptians can be optimistic about democracy, an American should seem to be able to be as well.



And OH WOW...I literally just got home from a class and a job interview, turn on the TV, and CNN's reporting heavy gunfire now, and you can hear the shots and some explosions near the central square in Cairo, and JUST NOW the US State Dept. has just advised all Americans in Egypt who wish to leave to report to the airport NOW and that further delay is unwise...

This looks to really be escalating into a full-blown civil war...and the ARMY still hasn't done anything yet, to the best of my knowledge, if THEY start shooting too, on either side, this could really get bloody.

I doubt if the Army is going to start shooting unless somebody starts shooting at them.

Its simple... If the army opens fire, its called a massacre. And people who order massacres tend to get put in front of a wall afterward. The generals who might order it would probably be able to get out of the country, but Major Muhammad Whoozits isn't going to be so lucky. So he'll probably have some selective hearing if the order comes to start shooting people.

Al-Jazeera has reported that the army was firing. Army erased all of its prestige in one day. They refused to protect and now some people think they're shooting at them.

Shit.

I was gladdened by reports that the Egyptian army was at least sympathetic to the demonstrators, if not aligning themselves with them directly. Images of protesters around Army vehicles without any major conflict was a welcome sight.

As I've said to my friends when talking about this... Mubarak is no Nasser. Nasser had his own issues, but he was incorruptible and honest(which wasn't true about some of his friends, to be sure).

I wonder how some of the older Nasserist and Pan-Arabian political movements are going to interface. It seems the Muslim Brotherhood is willing to play ball with the rest of the opposition (although hearing the right-wing media in the US bleating about how radical the Brotherhood is is quite amusing... the Muslim Brotherhood hasn't been 'radical' since the 1950s)

Interesting times. I feel confident that the Egyptians will sort this out themselves... its only a question of how much sturm und drang has to happen to get there.

"'ll think for myself and go on the belief that the "pro-mubarak" demonstrations started out as an attempt to settle down the anti-muby demonstraters and allow for a smoother transition of power"

Heh, I'm recording all of these quotes for future use when the usual suspects bitch about other governments doing this sort of thing.

I love hypocrisy.

The Muslim Brotherhood is irrelevant. They didn't organize this and have played a trivial role once the bandwagon got rolling. This is all done by the Egyptian Movement for Change. I don't know why people give the Muslim Brotherhood the time of day.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/02/egypt.journalists.attacked/index.html?hpt=T1

Did people see this?

The Pinkertons are back...

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/02/live-blog-feb-3-egypt-protests

12:45 am - "AJE Web producer, reporting from Tahrir Square says large caliber shots are being fired by the Egyptian army. It seems that they're "shooting in the air.'"

This has been officially denied, but I don't know.

Officially denied, but a military spokesperson has asked for the protesters to go home so life can return to normal.

Yeah the military clearly did a 180 on their "defenders of the people" line they were selling the other day.

well shooting at things is what the military does, it's not a police force or the salvation army. when scared young soldiers that have been trained to kill are brought in to restore order to a city, people who fuck with them should not be too shocked when they get shot.

at any rate this 'revolution' has no leaders and little external support, so its just a matter of time until it is completely repressed.

The military said they would not fire unless there was violence. Since the pro-Mubarak forces initiated violence the military intervened in an attempt to restore order. Even that intervention appears to be quite limited, with the Rebel Alliance angry with the army for staying neutral more than anything else.

What we're seeing isn't the army deciding to back Mubarak, it's thugs being sent by people who suddenly realize they lose everything should Mubarak go. If anything this shows how desperate the government has become and how successful the protests are, since Mubarak loyalists need to use criminal elements and other underhand means in an attempt to cling to power. I also haven't seen anything about counter-revolutionary movements in anyplace besides Cairo, which if true would also support the idea that this is the death throws of desperate apparatchiks who are worried about their years of easy living coming to an end.

Let's just hope the new Vice President isn't behind this reaction. If this gets much bloodier tomorrow I predict the Obama Administration will see Mubarak staying on as a hindrance to stability rather than a useful crutch to lean on for the short term and openly say it's time to go. Should this Suleiman character be running some sort of internal security campaign against the protesters (that was his job before taking office just few days go, so it's highly probable), he would be an unacceptable successor even in the short term. From what the news says he's basically the Colin Powell of Egypt: nobody really loves him but he would certainly be decent enough as president if that happened to happen.

The same thing was true of Tunisia, fiedler. These Days of Rage will at the very least lead to dramatic and permanent changes to Egypt, and if Mubarak is forced out there's no limit to what could happen to the other Arab dictatorships. Anyone who pretends to know what will happen is lying.

Well, the army's now forming something of a human chain to try and seperate the pros and antis, and according to the Al Jazeera English stream the antis aren't allowing anyone carrying a weapon into their ranks as they're starting up the chants again now en masse.

Nice gesture, but if the pro-Mubarak thugs attack again and they don't have protection...

@Invictus:

Sulemein's said there will be no dialogue until the protests stop, so basically parroting Mubarak's role, that doesn't sound like a man the people will accept as a replacement.