Anything like my victory (which I feel much the same about)?

I wanna hear

First of all, we can skip ahead to about Spring 1905. It was at this point where Italy called for a draw. Russia joined in a couple turns later; I dismissed it as typical calls from a power about to be squeezed (Italy, who was under assault from France and soon to be me, as Turkey) and a power on the verge of death (Russia, who by A1906 had 1 SC).

Then France and Germany joined in, leaving me as the only person left to vote for a draw. Well, I sure as HELL wasn't about to agree to a draw with a 1-SC power left alive who could easily be killed off. 4-way I was going for at first, since I figured France would bombard Italy and the only stalemate line I would have was the Sev-Rum-Bud-Vie-Tri-Ven-Rom-Nap-ION line.

Germany drops out next with some jumpy turns of missing orders and then not, with Russia still at 1 SC (later 2, by the end 2, with a max at any point thereon of 3). France started helping Italy at this point, and again I wasn't about to call for a draw with two relatively weak and easily-eliminated powers left.

Then France gets wavery and finally would have dropped out if I hadn't won the turn I did.

So, for those impartial observers: Do you think I should have drawn? I think my reasoning is solid, but of course *I* would. And honestly, I feel terrible about abusing Germany dropping out to win a WTA pot. Your thoughts?

@Remagen: There ya go.
@Draugnar: Not even close. Your win was totally justified and came due to others' fighting for a strong second over a draw (which in PPSC is a completely legitimate tactic); mine came from refusing to draw with a barely-living Russia and Italy and then abusing a Germany CD, which... well, I stand by my refusal to draw with Russia hanging on by a thread, but I don't like taking the win like I did.

@dep5greg: See above. By the way, good work surviving that one. I was waiting for you to die to draw. =P

Your initial refusal to draw was fine. Unless the 1 SC nation was an ally who sacrificed to put you in that position, I wouldn't have drawn with a 1 SC nation. Taking advantage of the CD... Questionable. Beyond that is hard for me to say. I don't play live games on the net, so the heat of the battle in them is unfamiliar to me.

Well, why did you not Draw then Turkey....

You had multiple times where you could have eliminated Russia and then hit the draw and it would have been well deserved to all of us....

The game totally lost interest for me after Germany dropped out. And it was clear that you were going to try and make a play for Venice...I would have happoly emiliminated Italy in 07-09 if you had ever tapped Naples, but not doing that meant you were thinking about trying for a solo, and I wasn't sure of Germany. I'm pretty surprised you went all the way through with it, though.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=40582 join plz

there wasnt really apoint where he could have eliminated me cause germany dropped out

The initial refusal was "What the hell guys, are you serious? RUSSIA HAS ONE SC AND DISBANDED IN IT! Germany, just take it and I'll probably draw since I can't kill Italy and maintain a stalemate line." Then Germany got flaky and I figured I would try to eat Italy while France fought the other side.

In my own defense, I was sure Germany would return until the moment I took St. Petersburg. And by then, the damage was done. (And I totally agree... that's highly questionable procedure.)

I was very pissed you must understand. You should have taken it and just gotten the deed done....

Autumn 1911, as you can see he's playing for position, rather than looking for the draw. Which, I admit, I maybe can't blame him because Germany had juust started to get spotty. But he was clearly not playing for the draw for a few years before that.

anyone up for another?

@Adat: No, I didn't, Russia took Denmark right as Moscow fell. After that it was y'all's responsibility to kill him.
@gramilaj: I couldn't afford to let you get Italy. You and Germany were allied, which meant that the only stalemate line I had ran through all the Italian SCs. Maybe I was thinking too much, but in your shoes, if that had happened and I had gotten Naples/Rome as France, I'm absolutely pushing my advantage into Turkey. So as Turkey, I'm not letting it happen. I hope that makes sense.

You did have a chance though when you started to notice that Germany was disconnecting. Whatever, I'll be honest with the way you guys started to breath down my backside a draw would have been pretty lucky.

And, the thing is i do not think you get the win if Germany does not leave or disconnect or whatever happened there.

I think a stalemate line would have been drawn.

It does, and I'm a lot happier seeing that you posted it. But once I started trying to take Rome with the army and had my draw vote registered, I thought my position was pretty clear. I had only 2 fleets to your 4, there was no way I was making much headway.

Autumn 1911 was the turn I won. By then I was committed to taking the win.

It was in Autumn 1910 that I decided to go for the win.

And yeah, I getcha, Adat, I'd be pissed too. That's why I feel bad as the winner, because it really just doesn't feel right. I think my position is defensible, but not really particularly honorable, and I wanted to get the opinions of others on here and explain myself.

Well I'd feel bad if i didn't tell you I emailed the mods. I mean i dont think they will do anything or can do anything but I was pretty upset. Either way, I understand why you went for it But this is the second time I have seen something like this happen to me.

But all in all, good game and good luck in future games.

@Adat - Eden didn't cheat and the mods aren't going to do anything. Why you even bothered them...

Sorry, I meant 06-07. You had an immobile Germany and an open Moscow for a year and a half. That was the time to grab the centers, divvy up italy and vote the draw up.

But really, posting this takes the sting off. Thanks for explaining, sorry I didn't stick around, it just seemed sort of silly to play at that point. In my mind, the game was over, it was a 4 way with a minor power (Italy) sneaking into the draw becaus I didn't want to risk your fleet in Naples.

yeah that's what I thought it was gonna be as well. Oh well......

I mean I am gonna say you know why I alerted them but again I know that they know these kinds of things happen and I do not expect anything to come from it but I was pretty mad. There was at least 3-4 movement phases where had open Moscow like France said.

@gramilaj - if you want to be taken seriously as a player here, you really shouldn't resign games. It's considered poor form. Finish the game out. You'll get more respect from others if you accept the loss than if you bail the game.

@Adat: You... emailed the mods...? I'm not sure what they can do about it.

@gram: I did have an idle Germany then, and I could have taken Moscow, but I expected Germany not to be idle on every one of those turns. If he hadn't shown up in Autumn of 1908 to validate my concern, then this would be a totally different story and I would ask the moderators to expunge this game and return points to all players. At that point he would have been idle for the last half of the game -- no excuse for my behavior, and none would have been given. But he showed up. And I did move to divvy up Italy -- but like I said, I expected Germany to show up any turn now, in which case I wasn't about to kill off Italy if it meant you could get through and stop a potential stalemate.

As for the fleet question, you had a total of four by the time Germany started to waver. Builds from Italy would have given you ample seapower, and you had the presence to pressure whatever holdings I might have gained in Italy until the northern fleets showed up and you broke through. That's how things were materializing in my mind, at least, and why I acted the way I did.

I'm glad to post, I felt like discussing this was needed and would have called for a discussion if I had been on the other end. And yeah, it was a four-way for a while, but once you and Italy made peace I kinda got the impression Italy might go after me.