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tj218 (713 D)
27 Oct 10 UTC
Other sites
Forgive me if this is taboo: Does anyone play on other sites? What features do you like/dislike?

26 replies
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Sicarius (673 D)
22 Oct 10 UTC
Neo-Luddism, A voice of reason in a cachophany of insanity?
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Sicarius (673 D)
22 Oct 10 UTC
The Luddite movement of the early 1800s was a rebellion against technological and social change against a backdrop of extreme hardship caused by the Napoleonic wars, although the acts of destruction strongly associated with Luddism began in the previous century.

At the dawn of the industrial revolution the textile industry was huge in England and had been so since the time of the Tudors so the effects of change were widely felt. It was a time of higher taxation to support war against France and so the introduction of automatic looms, which hugely affected skilled weavers, particularly in northern England, was extremely unpopular to say the least. Mechanization allowed mill owners to employ less people and also replace skilled workers with lower paid unskilled workers.

This led to mass rebellion in 1811-1812, which had to be put down by the British Army and resulted in large-scale executions and forced emigrations to the penal colonies in Australasia. There have been various uprisings of the last two hundred years but none so serious or so seriously dealt with as the Luddites (named after Ned Ludd). Even now ‘Luddite’ is a term still in common usage despite their desperate failure and two centuries having passed.

However, we now find ourselves in a situation not so different from the predicament of the Luddites – the poor continue to be pressurized to pay for a seemingly endless ‘War on Terror’ coupled with the grave errors of the world financial industry. As taxation and cost of living takes it toll on ordinary people we, like the Luddites, are not well equipped to cope with the effects of both Globalization and increasing automation taking jobs away. In fact Globalization and automation go hand-in-hand, as technological innovation is reducing the need for highly skilled workers and thus makes it possible to accelerate job transfers from 1st World nations to lower skilled workers in developing nations.

The growing Neo-Luddite movement is a reaction to the problems created by an increasingly technological workplace. Rather than being opposed to technology pers se, there is a spectrum of skepticism ranging from total simplicity to a critique of the role and value of modern technology. I would be of the view that technology itself is neutral – a stick is the most basic form of technology that can be used to cut a furrow in the ground for seed planting; conversely a perhaps bigger stick can be used to beat someone to death.

The real problem lies not in the technology itself but the application of it; and as time progresses we can follow a clear transition from functionality to convenience and also from longevity to disposability. The application of technological innovation seems to have gained its own momentum so that upgrades of existing products and all-new products appear regardless of the need for them, simply so that there is a continue flow of more new and exciting stuff for us to consume.

Technology is marvelous and it is great to have all manner of useful items that make life easier and more enjoyable. The trouble is that there is no accountability in all this, no acceptance or even realization of the consequences of unchecked production and innovation. A perfect example is the television – the CRT set was perfectly good and having been pretty much perfected was available in forms that used as little as 40W before its demise. The lovely new LCD and plasma sets take up less space but the picture quality is arguably no better (sometimes worse) and uses up to 8 times more electricity, not to mention a far greater amount of energy in production and more rare metals. So one must ask, was it worth it? Was there any real benefit?

Most of us don’t even consider these issues, being too blinded by the marketing and slick appearance to care about the dramatic upsurge in real cost. However, this is beginning to change as more people wake up to the reality of the environmental, social and psychological cost of sweeping changes in technology. Even if this takes the form of asking ‘Do I really need this?’ the questioning of the status quo is vitally important for the future of humanity. If I have a working CRT television then why do I need to spend more money thus encouraging the continual churning of the 24/7 factories that spew out new, over-packaged gadgets, create pollution and use up precious natural resources?

One need only walk into any ‘Nickel and Dime store’ or ‘Pound shop’ to see a plethora of cheap plastic goods, most of which are completely unnecessary and of questionable usefulness. Unfortunately, most people are not able to visualize the large-scale degradation of the natural world, the social shifts and decay or the psychological malaise of laziness and addiction which is increasingly prevalent all over the globe – as a result of the consumer society made possible by modern technology.

All systems in nature have a level of tolerance for threats – for instance a garden pond can tolerate a certain level of contamination before the plants and aquatic creatures begin to suffer. In the case of a ruined pond it is possible to fix this externally by removal of toxins to another location, replacement of the water, the plants and the fish etc. Unfortunately for us, this does not work on a planetary level – there is no outside, there is no place to go for more air, more clean water, more oil or more unpolluted soil. Of course, a ruined pond might recover by itself in a number of years, but as fossil records indicate, a ruined planet might take millions of years to recover.

The signs of systemic stress are showing all over the planet, whilst it does not appear to be overly serious it is still easy for us to put our heads in the sand and deny the obvious impact of our unchecked growth in population and consumption of resources. Time is beginning to run out, if we choose to wait until the evidence is undeniable to all then it will be an irreversible process by then. The stakes are too high to blindly accept the saccharin promises of technophilia; a series of checks and balances are urgently needed to stop or divert the unimpeded train of consumer driven techno-economies before it hurtles off the inevitable cliff. If technological progress is to continue to be part of our lives then it most definitely needs to be refocused on necessity, efficiency, benevolence and functionality.

Neo-Luddism is an alarm bell ringing that must be heard and amplified, not suppressed like its antecedent. If the real cost of ‘progress’ is mass depravation, intellectual degradation and the failure of our ecosystem; then I for one am happy to forgo electric toothbrushes, fast cars, fossil fuel central heating and designer gear. A simple future is infinitely better than no future at all.
Influx (100 D)
22 Oct 10 UTC
Well spoken. Would it be acceptable to repost this, with a citation/attribution? Did you write it?
Indybroughton (3407 D(G))
22 Oct 10 UTC
A well-reasoned argument from someone far more intellectual than I.

The question I have is this: WHO decides when "good enough" is "good enough".
Would it not have been reasonable in the 1920's to say "no more innovation in automobiles, use those resources elsewhere"? Or "do we really need PC's and the internet? Computers in the 1960's had progressed far enough". Our consumer society drives innovation. Innovation drives wealth. (The bottom 25% in industrialized society are living like kings versus the Luddites).

So...who guards the guardians? Who decides that "CRTs" are enough? Who decides that we don't need nacho-flavored potato chips? Who decides that coats are warm enough, and "thinsulate" should not be developed?

Sicarius (673 D)
22 Oct 10 UTC
I did not write it. only minor editing. I dont however see the need for citations. The ideas are the ideas regardless of who wrote them. If you really feel the burning deire to know, I'm sure theres someone here who will post the original, thinking that it somehow discredits me (me a shameless plagarizer)

@indy, I think the specific examples (TV's) are metaphorical.. What is important is evaluating things around you in a critical way.
stratagos (3269 D(S))
22 Oct 10 UTC
"What is important is evaluating things around you in a critical way. "

I would hope people would do that already, no matter what their political views are...
stratagos (3269 D(S))
22 Oct 10 UTC
"a series of checks and balances are urgently needed to stop or divert the unimpeded train of consumer driven techno-economies before it hurtles off the inevitable cliff."

What checks and balances?
stratagos (3269 D(S))
22 Oct 10 UTC
Note: I'm not just trying to pick a fight. The post basically lays out a problem: unsustainable growth. It then basically says "Somebody *do* something about this!"

The argument put forward is not unique. Unfortunately, neither is the lack of a reasonable solution. That's not a critique of the author; just pointing out that identifying a problem is nice and all, but just metaphorically waving your hands in the air and saying "I think this sucks, and I'm willing to do something. As soon as someone else comes up with a plan" doesn't really *get* us anywhere....
Sicarius (673 D)
22 Oct 10 UTC
"I would hope people would do that already, no matter what their political views are... "

I would hope so too. experience shows that few people do, regardless of politics.

stratagos (3269 D(S))
22 Oct 10 UTC
Heh. I wish I could disagree with that statement. Unfortunately, I cannot.
Sicarius (673 D)
22 Oct 10 UTC
metaphorically waving your hands in the air and saying "I think this sucks, and I'm willing to do something. As soon as someone else comes up with a plan" doesn't really *get* us anywhere....

Yes but because the majority of people dont understand this at all, and those attempting to "get somewhere" are branded as crazy extremists. The ELF is a perfect example. Their stated goal is the protection of all life on planet earth (who could disagree with that?) and to do this they cause economic damage (usually through arson) to attempt to get the corporations to cease their practices of environmental destruction.
Now, I'm not necessarily saying what they're doing is what we should all be doing, But most people have never even heard what their goals are. So they are facing extreme hinderance in trying to "ghet somewhre" precisly because people dont "evaluate things around them in a critical way"
warsprite (152 D)
23 Oct 10 UTC
Actually the poor pay very little if any taxes, at least in the states. It's mostly the middle/working class that pay the taxes.
Indybroughton (3407 D(G))
23 Oct 10 UTC
@ sicarius: I agree, there is value to clarify a problem. And I accept that "CRT's", fast cars, electric toothbrushes, etc, are metaphors for a willingness to slow the progress of consumerism in the hope that it will reduce resource usage, etc. My delemma is this (bear in mind that I endorse cap+trade, believe in preventative measures to address climate change even if it turns out to be mistaken, etc):

If the solution is for a third party (government, etc) to decide which consumer innovations are "worthwhile" (air bags, back up alarms, etc) and which are "frivolous" (fast cars, electric toothbrushes), so that we can redirect resources, then I fear that we head in the direction of a "command and control economy", with the brilliant government making those decisions. I believe in the role of government. I support more regulation of the financial industry. And I FEAR LIKE HELL if the government starts deciding that potato chips are not good for me.... that 100 flavors of soda are sufficient for society.... that IPODS and IPhones are frivolous expenditures of resources and should be taxed or prevented. Innovation creates wealth, and who is to decide which innovation should be allowed, and which should be prevented? Not the Luddites and not the government, or I fear for all of us.
warsprite (152 D)
23 Oct 10 UTC
Where do get the ideal that LCD are power hogs and CRTs are power efficient when the average CRT uses twice the power or more to operate. Your claim of 40 watts for a CRT is BS. Per PC review: "Energy Requirements: LCD monitors are extremely economical when it comes to power consumption. Their consumption is in the region of 25 -50 watts compared to CRT which consume like 60-80 watts for a 15 inch model to almost 70 to 150 for 17 and 19 inch models." The fact is most new electronic innovations are more effecient. This has been a trend for along time. The power useage of a old vacum tube compared to a transister is several magnitudes larger. So your board of protectors would more likely have relagated us to ineffeciant vacuum tubes. As far as rare earths go think of all the lead used in CRTs glass alone.

pastoralan (100 D)
23 Oct 10 UTC
@Warsprite: not true. Most states have sales taxes and other taxes that poor people pay. Furthermore, many of the "working class" you mention are also poor.
warsprite (152 D)
23 Oct 10 UTC
@ pastoralan The middle class pays alot more of that sales tax and most states do not tax food, medical care, and proscribed meds. Sales taxes are small potatoes when compared to state and federal income tax and property tax. Also all that sales tax goes to state and local goverments only, none goes to the war as Sicarius was refering. Yes some of the working class are poor but I don't think the workers at Ford and many other places can be called poor.
warsprite (152 D)
23 Oct 10 UTC
Also under a certian level the income tax is returned and then some.
Sicarius (673 D)
23 Oct 10 UTC
@ warsprite

"And I accept that "CRT's", fast cars, electric toothbrushes, etc, ARE METAPHORS for a willingness to slow the progress of consumerism in the hope that it will reduce resource usage, etc."
Jack_Klein (897 D)
23 Oct 10 UTC
Wow, a bunch of broad generalizations without any concrete sources.

This looks like a 20 year old student who attended a campus meeting on sustainability wrote this dreck.

Yes its terrible. However, posting badly written diatribes doesn't exactly help.

This is why people on both the "left" and the "right" annoy me equally. They think that if they pose "The signs are clear" this makes it true. It may even BE true. But you have to provide evidence. Otherwise its pointless.
warsprite (152 D)
23 Oct 10 UTC
False metaphors do not convince, they only make your arguement seem silly. This is not the first time you have presented "info" than when it's shot down you defend it with something like it's "a metaphor", or some such comment. Few if any will disagree that conspicous consumption is a problem. But it also speeds up the develpment of more efficient technologies, and removes old inefficient technologies from use sooner. It's not as clean cut a choice as you make it out to be.
Sicarius (673 D)
23 Oct 10 UTC
So you're saying all of the problems caused by technology will be solved by technology?
Jack_Klein (897 D)
23 Oct 10 UTC
Well, its a better potential solution than yours.

Your solution being overly pretentious and pseudo-intellectual on an internet forum.
Sicarius (673 D)
23 Oct 10 UTC
your solution: lets continue doing all the things that are causing us problems in the hopes that it will solve all the problems.

my solution: stop doing the things that are causing us problems

You know someone once said (I think einstein) That the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

pseudo-intellectual my ass. if you're being stung by wasps stops stirring their nests.
warsprite (152 D)
23 Oct 10 UTC
@ Sic The problem is what you call wrong. What you would have would only stifle the innovation that is needed to improve the situation. Thus leaving us in the same situation that we are in now. Yes technology can and should be used to solve are problems, because 99.99999% of the current world population do not want or would be willing to return to the early Neolithic as you have proposed in the past. Even if you did after a dozen generations it would only start all over again anyway. As Hawkins and other modern scientist have warned the best survival chance humanity has is to go to the stars and you can't do that with stone tools.
Jack_Klein (897 D)
23 Oct 10 UTC
The only way you can stop current depletion of resources is to simply cease industrial society as it is.

Which, as long as you're living in a dreamworld, can you ask the fairly godmother for a pony for me?
Sicarius (673 D)
24 Oct 10 UTC
"The only way you can stop current depletion of resources is to simply cease industrial society as it is."

Hey there you go, now you're talking like a sane person. plus theres ponies.
Sicarius (673 D)
24 Oct 10 UTC
I'm sure theres at least one person on this site whose grandma or someone lived before the industrial revolution, why is it treated as this inevitable truth of human existence?

Jack_Klein (897 D)
24 Oct 10 UTC
Well, good luck in persuading people to give up industrial society.

Yes. Provide food for six billion humans on the planet without having modern technology or industry. You planning on starving 90 percent of humanity?

You're a fucking idiot.
Jack_Klein (897 D)
24 Oct 10 UTC
Also, the Industrial Revolution took place in the 18th and 19th centuries. Highly unlikely that anybody's relatives that lived in any period of it are still alive.

Good to know you engage in fuzzy thinking on your historical knowledge, as well as your "analysis".
warsprite (152 D)
24 Oct 10 UTC
"I'm sure theres at least one person on this site whose grandma or someone lived before the industrial revolution" Since the industral revolution started in the early 18th century no. It's an inevitable truth because humans are never satisfied with good enoff. Some fool did not always want to live with the threat posed by a saber tooth tiger, starvation, and any number threats. Sure new threats a rise some of are own making, some we just did not know were always there. What your asking for is extermination of 6 billion souls, because that's what will happen if we stop now. You sound like some Eco-nazi storm trooper.
Sicarius (673 D)
24 Oct 10 UTC
My point is that the industrial revolution is extremely recent. Saying we cant live without things we've only gotten in the last 200 years of our 2 million year existence is... silly. We absolutely need the things we've gotten in the last 0.0001% of the time modern humans have walked the earth to be able to continue living. Do you listen to yourselves?

It is undeniably true that the world’s population cannot be sustained without modern civilization. Of course, it is abundantly clear that modern civilization is not sustainable, either. Given those two facts, then some kind of massive die-off is inevitable. It might be through genocide, but since primitvists are a fringe of a fringe (and will always be so) it’s unlikely to come from us. There are many other parties with a much greater interest in genocide for its own sake, who are far closer to power than we will ever be. Genocide on such a scale would be pretty much impossible, and though die-off is guaranteed, it is almost as guaranteed not to come by way of genocide. Collapse is more likely to occur as it always has. The diminishing returns of complexity lead to the breakdown of civilization, until some minor turbulence that might have been easily overcome in a former time, instead ends our civilization–the way an AIDS victim dies not of AIDS, but of some minor disease a healthy person would have easily shrugged off. Perhaps Peak Oil, perhaps global warming, whatever the proximate cause, our ability to produce food will be cut off.

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132 replies
Vanillacoke101 (100 D)
29 Oct 10 UTC
join newbies allowed!
join my game simple enough right?
1 reply
Open
Happymunda (0 DX)
28 Oct 10 UTC
NEW GAME
4 replies
Open
omgwhathappened (0 D)
28 Oct 10 UTC
Anon, Public Press, Fog of War - olidip.net
http://olidip.net/board.php?gameID=2412

saw this game over on oli. have wanted to try this since i first heard about it.
5 replies
Open
Rusty (179 D)
28 Oct 10 UTC
Tech Help?
Any advice for MacBook wireless connectivity trouble?
18 replies
Open
stratagos (3269 D(S))
28 Oct 10 UTC
Son of a bitch
Go to get a car wash at lunch. Tell them to do the works - generic outside, half hour 'nook and crannies' inside. Get it back. Check engine light. Take it to Sears. P1709 - Problem Transmission Gear Selection Switch Circuit Comprehensive....
16 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
28 Oct 10 UTC
Paul the Octopus: Dead at the age of 2 1/2
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/26/paul-the-octopus-dead-wor_n_773896.html

Goodbye, Paul...may you enjoy your Garden in the shade with Ringo...
4 replies
Open
Lando Calrissian (100 D(S))
28 Oct 10 UTC
Frustrations
I don't usually do this, but take a look at this game and tell me what on earth everyone else was thinking. Other than turkey who was obviously thinking about how easy everything was. gameID=40783. geez.
1 reply
Open
kestasjk (95 DMod(P))
25 Oct 10 UTC
Tetraplegic man's life support 'turned off by mistake'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-11595485

Just saw this.. very, very disturbing.. He was concerned enough about it to set up a camera in his room and write to the NHS about it, he was aware what was happening as it got turned off, and he got severely brain damaged..
67 replies
Open
stratagos (3269 D(S))
28 Oct 10 UTC
Questions
Ok, so 'question' threads are popping up like hotcakes. I'm not going to bother replying to them all, so here's over 100 questions for you. Answer whichever ones you want, or don't do any at all - I probably won't read the answers ;)
3 replies
Open
dannyboi (0 DX)
27 Oct 10 UTC
Alliances from other games
Carried over to a new game?
Russia said this:
54 replies
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vexlord (231 D)
25 Oct 10 UTC
when egyptians have tanks, trouble will ensue
i was thinking about a new semi high point game (300 - 500) playing with the ancient med map. is anyone interested? im negotiable on anon vs known and WTA vs PPSC. i would like 2 day phases as who wants to hurry?
11 replies
Open
ARKUDIEN (100 D)
28 Oct 10 UTC
Subject of Discussion
This thread is dedicated to the discussion of a subject.
10 replies
Open
Sicarius (673 D)
28 Oct 10 UTC
Bug! Help!
I am unable to complete my orders In a game. next phase is due soon. I get this error when i try to complete the moves of an army to be convoyed, and the convioying fleet. details inside
9 replies
Open
Lando Calrissian (100 D(S))
28 Oct 10 UTC
password live
is there enough people around for a passworded live gunboat?
0 replies
Open
principians (881 D)
25 Oct 10 UTC
I need a sitter
i need a sitter
26 replies
Open
Aeneas17 (544 D)
28 Oct 10 UTC
Joining password open games
How do I join an open game with a password. I tried my pass word but it didn't work. Does the game have a separate password? If so, how do I get it?
1 reply
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
25 Oct 10 UTC
Ugh. Emptiest victory ever.
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=40567 I'm ashamed to have taken the win in this one. I'll explain my reasoning for anyone from the game (or not from the game) who cares to hear, because I think those of you who stuck it out deserve an explanation.
71 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
27 Oct 10 UTC
Could an omnipotent being prove it?
http://www.juliansanchez.com/2010/10/04/could-an-omnipotent-being-prove-it/

I don't think we coverd this in the last conversation about the science of knowledge...
0 replies
Open
Sicarius (673 D)
27 Oct 10 UTC
Gunboats... why?
I'm in my first gunboat right now. I've been playing it from around 5 sc's and am up to about 20.
I dont get it. whats the draw? why are there SO many of these?
4 replies
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
27 Oct 10 UTC
Ask your President, John Henry Eden
...what? Surely you always wanted to know what your leader knows, am I right, dearest America? And besides, Enclave started this shtick first, you know. We start everything. Now ask away and prepare to know "What Would Eden Do?" and "So?"
3 replies
Open
Bob Genghiskhan (1228 D)
26 Oct 10 UTC
So, what are you going as for Hallowe'en?
I'm probably going to go as Two Face; a little makeup, a suit, a Vote Dent button, and a gun, and I'm good.
38 replies
Open
stratagos (3269 D(S))
26 Oct 10 UTC
New Game: Holy CRAP it's just a goddam game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=40640
PW: fun

11 replies
Open
podium (498 D)
27 Oct 10 UTC
Training Day Series
Is that the series of games where players in game ask for advice or analysis of the game after it is finished.Or is it during the game.And if so would like to know who the critics are.Or how to become one.
5 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
25 Oct 10 UTC
Job Interview Advice
FINALLY got a call-back on a job (Barnes & Nobles, been trying to get a job there for three years...practically go there every day, it's I'm such an English/Literature person and all) for tomorrow morning, had a couple managers recommend me to another, and I did well with him on Saturday, so tomorrow meeting for what I'd assume would be the final interview for a position there...anyone who's been through this and been successful nabbing the job, any advice?
55 replies
Open
Katsarephat (100 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
Rage is Therapy: The Reckoning
Some of you might remember the Rage is Therapy game. This was a public-press game in which players made a point of acting pissed off and spewing insults all the time. It was lots of fun and I want to see another one happen!
118 replies
Open
Bob Genghiskhan (1228 D)
26 Oct 10 UTC
Password protected live game
20 point anon game, starts at 35 after.gameID=40656

Reply in this thread for the password, and if you're not a CDer, I'll PM it to you.
8 replies
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
26 Oct 10 UTC
Who's up for a good old-fashioned game of Diplomacy?
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=40652
1 reply
Open
JesusPetry (258 D)
26 Oct 10 UTC
New gunboat
36h, 35 D, anon

gameID=40650
0 replies
Open
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