Well, I wouldn't call something like giving scholarships to exemplary members of disvantaged groups 'discrimination', but if that's what you call it, then I yeah, I think it's a viable solution to systematically disavantagement, assuming you don't want to tear down the whole structure of power and heirarchy.
Amon Savag Online (753 )
New 10:03 PM
I do want to tear down the whole structure of power and heirarchy. What do you think about that?
Draugnar Online (100 )
New 10:06 PM
Making one ineligible for consideration is where the discrimination occurs, FS. If I had formed the National Association for the Advancment of White People (NAAWP), and gave out scholarships to whites only, people would be up in arms. It's the same concept.
Friendly Sword Online (278 )
New 10:07 PM
Oh my my... you do!? How lovely! ^^

First, are you prepared to accept that (if you are white) you have been systemically advantaged by virtue of your lucky birth?

Second, are you prepared to scrap or reform all legislation that targets disadvantaged groups? (ie. War on Drugs; crack/coke penalties)

Thirdly, will you join me in denouncing the elite structure of power in America as systemaitaclly patriarchal, violent, and racist in its implementation of power retaining measures? (ie. wars, culture battles, lobby groups etc)
Friendly Sword Online (278 )
New 10:10 PM
Draugnar, the vast majority of affirmative action does not make ANYONE ineligible. Does it make it harder for individual white people to succeed? Yes. But the status quo is that it is easier for white people to succeed.

It sucks to be affected by it personally. But its all a matter of perscpetive.
Friendly Sword Online (278 )
New 10:10 PM
I suspect however, that neither of you agree that white-male privelige exists though, eh?
Amon Savag Online (753 )
New 10:13 PM
First, you're retarded to think that being born white in this day and age is an advantage.

Second, that ridiculous couple of examples of legislation doesn't target "disadvantaged" groups.. They target a segment of the population I'd rather have shot than fined.

Thirdly, you're dumb. I wouldn't join you for a stroll in the park, you racist prick.
Draugnar Online (100 )
New 10:14 PM
I don't believe we have to tear down the system to reform it. I believe we have to make laws be applied equally across the board. 40+ years is enough time to make education and advancement opportunities available to everyone regardless of race or sex. And nowadays, the problem isn't in what race you are, but what the financial state of your neighborhood is. There are many affluent minorities in business and medicine and law and the like, and many poor whites who will never escape the life of living in the inner city and working at McDs or the rural community on mom and pop's farm.

We need to create equal availability regardless of income to education and opportunity. That is where the real discrimination lies today. Basic education needs to be more equal and not be advantageous to the affluent neighborhoods and advanced education needs to be supplemented such that those of less means get the grants to compensate, provided they show the talent to advance with what they were given at birth.

That is where we need to focus, but it isn't going to happen as long as we view social/financial inequity as a racial problem...
Mafialligator Online (100 )
New 10:16 PM
Friendly Sword, you just became my favourite person on this website. I'm so glad that I'm not alone in taking this side of the debate.
figlesquidge Online (2331 )
New 10:16 PM
"Second, are you prepared to scrap or reform all legislation that targets disadvantaged groups? (ie. War on Drugs; crack/coke penalties)"
That's not targeting a group. It is up to each individual to get into or not get into drugs. If they do the penalty should be the same, irrespective of their background.
Draugnar Online (100 )
New 10:19 PM
@figle +1 - The penalty *is* the same, regardless of race. The fact that more AAs are sent up has nothing to do with inequality at any level of the law. It has to do with the fact that more AAs are committing the crimes to begin with.
Mafialligator Online (100 )
New 10:32 PM
And why pray tell to more African Americans commit crimes to begin with, if structural and institutionalized racism is not a problem?

However you do have a point when you say that it's not strictly racial. You're right. It's not, it does have a lot to do with your parent's affluence as well. There are poor white people. But you can't take race out of the equation. Whether we admit it or not race is still an extremely important locus of discrimination in our society. And don't give me this "Whites are being discriminated against" bullshit either. It has always been, and still is, much much easier to be white, even a poor white, than any other race.
Bob Genghiskhan Online (326 )
New 10:38 PM
It's amazing to me that people have the blinders necessary to doubt that whiteness remains a gigantic advantage.
Amon Savag Online (753 )
New 10:40 PM
I aint never got a hand out for being white. I see many people from other races getting handouts, however... Odd...
Mafialligator Online (100 )
New 10:45 PM
And yet white people are still the single wealthiest racial group in the world. Odd...

Maybe that has something to do with the fact that "handouts" as you so disparagingly term them, don't do very much to alleviate deeper, more fundamental forms of discrimination.
Friendly Sword Online (278 )
New 10:53 PM
Black People are statistically more likely to do Crack.
White people are statistically more likely to do Coke.
Penalties for doing Crack are dramatically higher than Coke, despite the fact this it is essentially the same shit. This ain't racist, yo?

Anyway, with regards to people who think I am a 'racist prick' for believing that it is in advantage to be a white male in America; are you blind? Of course it's a f-ing racial issue!

The confusion here, that Draugnar picks up on, is that disadvantagement is not at it's essence something racial. It's about segments of the population exercising dominance over other segments. Race just happens to be one of the prime conduits for opression.

Affirmative Action is a clumsy tool, and often it's effectiveness is limited. But it is better than nothing, considering the alternative.
Friendly Sword Online (278 )
New 10:55 PM
And why is that racist, anyway? I don't believe that white people are genetically created to opress blacks, and I believe that the vast majority of people in America are not conciously racist (this may be too generous). But the system is broke people, and it ain't going to fix itself.
figlesquidge Online (2331 )
New 11:01 PM
@Mafia: Maybe so. I'm not saying that things are equal, I know there are issues. The things that annoy me are cases of positive discrimination, in almost any occurrence.
Another for me is when people who get extra time in exams. There are some cases that are fair enough, but for example I had a friend who was diagnosed as being dyslexic. As a result of this he got an extra 20% (figure uncertain) longer to do the paper.
Now, I have a scientifically focused mind, and my writing skills leave a lot to be desired (as anyone who's ever played against me will know). However, the difference here: he'd done a test that told people he couldn't write well; I couldn't write well.
We were both good scientists, such that the limiting factor on our papers was not knowing the material, but having the time and linguistic control to articulate this. Therefore I feel it is unreasonable that he should be allowed extra time.

Looking at this another way: what is the point of an exam? Suppose he got a good mark in this exam, and so was hired to work on something - perhaps organising the construction of a structure. He's not going to be allowed an extension from his bosses just because he's not able to write well.
Or maybe that's exactly why British engineering projects so often overrun
Mafialligator Online (100 )
New 11:06 PM
I'm sorry. I'm not convinced. Dyslexia is a serious learning disabillity. You're suggesting that your friend should just be left to deal with that, when it is in fact a recognized medical condition? I'm sorry. I really don't want to be rude, or sound like a troll...but it just seems to me like your entire argument is "Well I don't want anyone else to have something that I don't!" Like a kindergartener who only wants to play with the truck because Billy has it.
Amon Savag Online (753 )
New 11:07 PM
What I'm trying to say is who cares which group is the wealthiest? Only racists.

I see individuals, where you see race. You're right, the handouts only encourage stagnation in these targeted groups.. That's why our government does it! Enslavement through means other than the whip. So long as these groups are dependent on the government, the government can do whatever they want and count on these people to vote them back into office.
Friendly Sword Online (278 )
New 11:08 PM
Figlesquidge, education and testing is all arbitrary and horribly flawed. Additionally, though clearly some people need learning aids, etc. it is extremely difficult to negotiate who gets what. Even so, I don't think you'd say that all children should be given the same tools and time?

Furthermore, being disabled it isn't a very good analogy for adressing racial opression, but even if it was, I don't think it is convincing.
Friendly Sword Online (278 )
New 11:12 PM
I see individuals, and I see them facing particular difficulties or benefits because they belong to a group that they didn't choose to belong in.

That is f---d up, and I want that to stop.

I feel like you don't know what it means to be racist. I may very well be one, but not because I have noticed that those with power in American society are usually white men.
Amon Savag Online (753 )
New 11:12 PM
WHAT!? Mafialigator! That was ridiculous! You're going to get after fig for wanting for someone to work at the same level as he had to... But you're not going to get after people of one race saying "That's not fair" when white people have something they dont!? You've just destroyed whatever standing you had in logic.
Mafialligator Online (100 )
New 11:16 PM
I absolutely did not. The situations are too different to compare, and even if they were not. Figlesquidge is complaining that a dyslexic student was given extra time, and comparing that to affirmative action for racial minorities. I'm defending, simultaneously, extra time for students with learning disabilities and affirmative action for racial minorities. My stance is logically sound.
What I'm saying figlesquidge doesn't want is that he doesn't want to see other people given help that he's not getting, even in a situation where help for him would be unwarranted.
Amon Savag Online (753 )
New 11:18 PM
You're defending an entire group of people for saying... in your own words... "Well I don't want anyone else to have something that I don't!" and at the same time getting after fig for saying that. If you don't see fault with that, then you need to get a refund on your obviously lousy edumucation.
Amon Savag Online (753 )
New 11:19 PM
And we'll let Mafialligator decide when help is warranted. He's the genius here.
Mafialligator Online (100 )
New 11:21 PM
No I'm not.
UGH. Here's what you have to understand.
WHITE PEOPLE ALREADY HAVE EVERYTHING!
STUDENTS WITHOUT DISABILITIES ALREADY HAVE EVERYTHING!
And yet they still sit there and say "It's not fair that black people get help." "It's not fair that the dyslexic kid gets extra time."

By comparison, underprivileged people fighting against majority privilege is a totally different situation.
Mafialligator Online (100 )
New 11:24 PM
At least, students without disabilities have everything for the sake of this analogy. In reality the situation is more complex, and I do not think it is an apt analogy.
Friendly Sword Online (278 )
New 11:24 PM
Amon Savag, do you want to have a serious conversation? If you do, I will engage with you, but if you don't, it's kind of pointless and silly. :/

Once again, opression is not a single paradigm. Race is important, but so are gender, class, and tons of differentiating characteristics.
figlesquidge Online (2331 )
New 11:24 PM
Well firstly I'm still scheptical about Dyslexia, and certainly about it being an 1/0 case. I can't believe that it is as simple as some people have this, some don't.
Yes in some ways that is my arguement. However, the truck analogy doesn't work. It would be more like us both being told to make a house out of lego, then him being given 20 more bricks. If we weren't being compared then sure, he's my friend, I'd be happy for him to have more. However, if at the end of this we are going to be given scores (where my score is not independant of his) then I think it is right for me to feel hard done by.


Also, you don't sound like a troll: I can't remember where this thread started, but that is completely on subject. I accept this is one of my more extreme views, and it's likely to stir up debate.
The friend in question is actually a member on this site, and I'll see if I can get him to comment at some point.

White people (in general) don't have everything! Some do, some don't. It has nothing to do with the color of our skin these days. I would say that the playing field is being tilted in favor of certain race groups artificially and that it's unfair to those whites who don't have everything. This is why you are a racist. You classify all of one race as one being. "This race is this way, that race is that way". It's bull shit.
figlesquidge Online (2331 )
New 11:27 PM
@FS - I hope you'll still treat me as being rational. Just because he's agreeing with my thoughts doesn't mean I support his logic! Where's Ghost when I need him :/

I'm not going too seriously into the link between the two arguments, because although that can be done it is quite hard to do since none of the aspects really 'line up'.
Mafialligator Online (100 )
New 11:29 PM
For the record I have also been diagnosed with learning disorders and have received extra time on exams occasionally. I was always uneasy about it, but let me say this. I had the ideas, the thoughts, worth marks, I had trouble getting them down on the paper in time. An exam should not measure speed writings skills, it should measure knowledge and comprehension. Failing someone for being poor at handwriting defeats the entire purpose of education in the first place.
De Gaulle Online (0 )
New 11:29 PM
whatever happened to the original topic before amon and others hijacked it? or became worse trolls!!!
figlesquidge Online (2331 )
New 11:31 PM
Oh sorry about that, perhaps we should move it back .

@Mafia: That is fair enough, I see that logic, but in that case I could argue I'm being disadvantaged because I didn't know how to take the test that proves I'm not good at writing and so get extra time in my exams.
Mafialligator Online (100 )
New 11:32 PM
Also I'm glad to hear you do not think I sound like a troll figlesquidge. I realize debates can get heated, and the last thing I want is for people to think I am a jerk. In answer to De Gaulle, I propose moving this debate over to another thread to allow this one to get back to it's original discussion topic. I'm sorry your subject got buried in our argument.
Friendly Sword Online (278 )
New 11:32 PM
Among Savag, were you raised in a straw person factory? Jeepers.

What I believe, and pay attention, is that being the racial majority in America, in this case, being white, conveys certain advantages to you, by virtue of you being white, and simultaneously, necessarily conveys disadvantages to other people by virtue of thier colour of skin.

I don't believe that genuine differences between races extend beyond the most superficial. Everything else is an arbitrary construction. But that doesn't mean it isn't real.


And don't worry figle, I find you to be relatively reasonable. :) *Hug*
figlesquidge Online (2331 )
New 11:36 PM
Agreed and made one.
Amon Savag Online (753 )
New 11:37 PM
You believe wrong. White people are not treated any more advantageous by the government these days. The opposite is true. So where do you base this belief?

Thanks. I will post my reply to Amon's comment here.
As much as I hate to say this, you are of course right Amon. Some of my comments (and Friendly Sword's as well) do paint racial groups as being monolithic in terms of socioeconomic standing. Naturally this isn't true, the reality of the situation is much more complex. But the point I've been trying to make is this; even poor white people face less discrimination than underprivileged racial minorities. It's more than just "well what sort of equality gets lip service from politicians, or even, a few laws here and there which are explicitly designed to help certain people. Structural and institutional racism exists in the way people think, in the way people unconsciously feel. These are ideas that have been ingrained into the very core of our social lives, not merely the formal interactions, but the informal ones as well, and even the ones we don't even realize exist.
I'm not saying that people still actively discriminate and try to enforce Jim Crow laws or anything. What I'm saying is, you accept, and even racial minorities accept, white privilege, (or male privilege, upper class privilege, heterosexual privilege, what have you), without even realizing it.

So you're basing your belief on the theory that all of us are racist... And the way to cure this is to pass legislation that would only (by propping up one race artificially over the other) deepen the racism?

I'm not saying that in every case legislation is the answer. You keep coming back to that. That isn't my point. I think it's better than the alternative, of just letting these problems run rampant and unchecked. A better solution would ultimately be to effect a massive change in the way people construct ideas of race, gender, class or what ever else you may be concerned with. The issue with that of course is that the way people think is fundamentally structured by society. Your thought processes are a product of the social world in which you live. (And mine too)

A better course would be to keep government out from biasing for one group, and allow things to correct themselves.

But what if things don't correct themselves? What then?

Darwinism.

And in fact we know they won't. People seek to maintain privilege, whether they realize it or not. White privilege won't disappear just because we decide to ignore it. That's part of what allows it to persist in the first place.

the odds are still with you if you're white so you can't complain. whites are still more likely to get a job or go to college than a black person. Maybe someone who's black has a better chance of going to harvard if they're smart than a smart white person but I'm not going to shed tears over that

Care to elaborate on that Amon? Darwinism?

That's an epic fail, mafia. There are plenty of influential people within the minorities. This number can only grow as their kids are raised into their status.

Basically if colleges or employers did nothing to accomodate minorities there would be barely any minorities there since minorities often come from lower income groups and are disadvanteaged from the start.

Individual cases cannot be used to disprove social trends. There will always be exceptions. That doesn't disprove the general rule that white people tend to do better in our society than minorities.

I can't read all that....I'll just give you a story. dateline Ann Arbor, Michigan. A School has a lunch-time program designed to help "struggling students". The Black Principle of the school defines struggling students as "Black Students", regardless of economic background or GPA. A Black "rocket scientist" is giving a speech somewhere and the Principle takes the kids...the black kids that "need help" that is...to see the Black Scientist speak. Outrage results....Program gets cancelled and the Prinicple (who gets moved from school to school often for such problems...instead of being fired because he is protected by a union (but that's another story...))...is status-in-question.

Lessons learned:
* Black see all Blacks as disadvantaged, apparently, regardless of social status, income or grade point.
* Other minorities in the school who may have social and/or economic disadvantages do not count
* All non-blacks learned a little about racism that day...and will remember that event with a bitterness in their heart, most likely.

Racism of any kind in this day and age is just flat out stupid and ignorant. If you need programs to help the "disadvantaged", then use socio-econnomic indicators. In the business world, I have suffered the loss of opportunity because a business was *only* seeking "minority-owned" businesses to do business with. Often times, the "minority-owned" business is in fact a suave white-guy who has some shill for a partner who qualifies as a minority, but has nothing to do with the business.

I think our black President, our previous black SecState, SecDefense, our Latino Supreme Court Justice, our Women Supreme Court Justices, our woman Speaker of the House (though I need her to lift her skirt to verify that...)....I think it's time to end discrimination of any sort. It's kind of pathetic. BUT...there is a whole industry built around "group rights" -- What happens to the Rainbow Coalition (funny how the rainbow is only black...), what happens to the Black Panthers? Loranza? etc....Too much money tied up in the business of hate...so it will never die. :(

You guys are beyond me. If you are wanting to penalize one group for doing too well for itself, you could expect nothing but that group to feel alienated. If you alienate the powerful, you could expect repercussions.

Of course some people do well. See my earlier comment about reality being complex, and racial groups not being monolithic economically speaking.
And I don't see how a few wealthy or influential minorities having children totally destroys white privilege. You just have another generation with a handful of wealthy, influential minorities. The status quo is more or less maintained.

A few wealthy or influential minorities destroys your notion that whites are the only ones with privilege. Obviously if this hand full of influential minorities can get to where they are, OTHERS CAN TOO. It's a matter of whether or not they're willing to do what it takes, as those who are already there have.

Just because white people generally go to college more than a minority doesn't mean that it is easier for a white person to do so.

Naturally some people will feel alienated. And you know what? I don't even expect some of them not to fight it. But that doesn't mean they're correct. That doesn't mean that they're correct.

And to Krellin. You can't use a single poor decision to hang all of affirmative action. These programs may be poorly executed.

And advocates for minority rights, or group rights are very important. Without them holding the system accountable, power and decision making falls unchecked into the hands of majorities. Pointing to a handful of influential minorities doesn't disprove that point. It's just a cheap tactic to make it look like "Oh look we're all equal a woman is speaker of the house!" The casual misogyny of your comment that you need to check under her skirt to verify that she is a woman, indicates just how far we really are from equality.

No it doesn't Amon. I've been trying to say this for hours now.
A handful of exceptions to a general rule does not prove that the rule is total bullshit.

If I flip a coin three times and every time it comes up heads, does that disprove probability? Of course not.
Similarly circumstances can occasionally conspire to allow someone from a minority to rise to an influential station. Does that prove that in general minorities have a harder time of achieving this than majorities? Of course not.

Errr typo. THat last sentence should read "Does that prove that in general minorities do not have a harder time of achieving this than majorities? Of course not."

There's a serious difference there. Black people are fundamentally the same as white people. Men are not fundamentally the same as women.

"Similarly circumstances can occasionally conspire to allow someone from a minority to rise to an influential station. Does that prove that in general minorities have a harder time of achieving this than majorities? Of course not."

Why are we arguing?

So do women deserve help where racial minorities do not?

Not any more.

Actually that was a typo Amon. I corrected it in my next post. It should read "Similarly circumstances can occasionally conspire to allow someone from a minority to rise to an influential station. Does that prove that in general minorities DO NOT have a harder time of achieving this than majorities? Of course not."

Here's what I think -- If minorities want a special consideration for things like college and business opportunities, etc....then I think we need the NFL and NBA and Baseball to look more like America....

Actually...no...I like it just the way it is. Competitive and profitable. Now, maybe if colleges admitted purely on academic standings we wouldn't (in theory) be falling behind the rest of the world academically, and if government and businesses hired and contracted based upon best practices and profitability, we wouldn't have as many shitty businesses out there - particularly the ones "winning" government contracts and then doing piss-poor work...

@Mafia -- You are right, ican't use one piss poor example of "affirmative action"....I take the entire concept and every instance of reverse discrimination collectively and damn the whole racist fucking concept!

But does the fact that there are less poeple of status from a certain race prove the opposite? Of course not. You're just speculating based off data taken based off a HUGE group's personal decisions. I would say that a minority with less influential people have less influential people because there are less who truly want influence from that group. Is this wrong? no. Why are you trying to force a life style of opulance down the throat of those who would be content to live a mediocre life?

It's not a racist concept.
First of all, racism is prejudice + power. And overwhelmingly power is still in the hands of whites. It is not possible to be racist against white people.
Second of all your argument is silly. The rest of the western world (the people you claim to be falling behind) also enact affirmative action policies. You gotta look elsewhere for your explanations my friend.
Point the third, the fact that you don't even realized that you just blamed the fact that colleges admit minorities to university for falling test scores speaks to the kind of unconscious biases that I'm referring to.