Nicely done Jamie. Like you, I hope everyone here would agree, but I'm not all that optimistic that they do. All too often, in both in-game messages and the forum, the words "gay," "fag," and their ilk are inconsiderately hurled as insults, to say nothing of myriad sexist gibes in the form of pejorative applications of "bitch," "girl," and the ever popular "pussy." It's all quite bigoted and disheartening. I look forward to the day when insults are elevated above petty ad hominen attacks that are based on challenging one's resemblance to an anachronistic, heterosexist standard of masculinity. And if one is simply compelled to deploy one-word barbs, I hope that s/he would use insults that are universally accepted and offend no one. Something like "dentist" or "tax man," perhaps?

Never heard of such a day. Sounds made-up, like "sweetest day". That being said, if it's a "phobia" - an irrational intense and persistent fear - then how can you be against it? You are really saying you are against the PERSON who has this unexplainable psychological disorder, an illness if you will. I think that's rather cruel to be against someone because they have an illness.

That being said, maybe if EVERYBODY kept their g*damned bedroom activities to themselves it wouldn't be such a problem. Frankly, I'm rather sick and tired of ANYONE getting on TV or in the media to tell me what their particular likes and dislikes are...I know...it's more than that, blah blah blah. Persecution of Christian beliefs is fine, though, I bet...Just guessing.

Hey....dentists are people, too! but, yes, "tax man" is DEFINITELY a swear word....unless you are a socialist, in which case they are your greatest ally.

So let me ask a question. Let me state I am not anti-gay, but just want to ask a something that doesn't quite make sense to me. I do NOT call people gay as a barb (i'm 40 year old, a little too old for that).

Lets suppose you have a group of vegetarians. Is it conceivable that as a jibe, to tease, one would call another 'Meateater'. Even if he isn't, its a nice barb, even if you happen to be friends with some meateaters.

If you have a group of straight people, and call someone 'gay' as a tease, what's the difference?

I'm allowed to tease someone about their hair, as a guy, I'm allowed to tell you you have a tiny penis as an insult, even though it may be fully functioning, why can't I call you gay, even if you're not.

Dingle +1.

@JamieT: absolutely.

@Krellin: "You are really saying you are against the PERSON", that is a ridiculous extrapolation, as I suspect you know and intended.

What drives me nuts are people who claim to be fighting for equal rights and the ability for individuals to make their own decisions, but they say it's wrong to believe that certain acts are immoral. Down with bigotry all the way, but make sure you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, or else all ethical inquiry becomes meaningless.

Here's my take on the whole insult thing - 41, by the way - when I was a kid, I was taught "sticks and stones can break my bones but WORDS can never hurt me". As a society, we have flipped this notion upside-down. People take offense at the drop of a hat and act like violence is acceptable in the aftermath of words. I think a lot of people need to just lighten the hell up about being called a name. If you are gay and somebody "insults" you by calling you gay, who really gives a flying fart. The dick calling you gay isn't worth the effort to get upset about. Someone who is so base to call somebody else a derogatory name based upon some physical or personal attribute just isn't worth the effort to get pissed off about - I consider the low-grade intelligence involved and simply pity them!

On the flip side, if we could all start by being humans first, then Americans or whatever second, and the fact that you are (whatever) falls down to about 53rd on the list, there would be a lot less problems. Why do so many people have to FIRST be "gay" Dave, or "purple" Joe or "vegan" Susie. I don't care....most people don't care....until you start putting it our face as if your orientation and choices are supposed to affect our lives. They don't.

@Dip - yeah....was poking fun with that comment. I think homophobes and whatnot need to get a life. And this coming from a conservative Christian. Frankly, I have enough sins in my own life that I don't need to go around pointing out yours.

You do all realize that the entire point of an insult is to degrade and insult, correct? So V+, your whole little "if one is simply compelled to deploy one-word barbs, I hope that s/he would use insults that are universally accepted and offend no one. Something like "dentist" or "tax man," perhaps?" doesn't make sense to be because if they don't offend the person than you have kind of failed as an insulter. haha

Also, I think that Americans do need to lighten up and grow thicker skin when it comes to insults. It's just words, y'know? They might sting for a moment but if you deal with the pain properly (provided its even that bad) then it won't really be to much of a problem for you later in life.

PS: I am not anti-gay, just an fyi.

I think homosexuality is a horrible sin (at least for guys, the bible says nothing about 2 girls), but I'm not afraid of gay people.

@jman777, krellin, and others who deply the "stick and stones" argument:

Racial slurs are mere words, no? So would it be acceptable for me to use the so-called "n-word" in the forum as an insult? What any of the countless other - ahem - colorful terms for non-whites? The thing is, racial slurs are conspicuously absent from the forum and in-game messages because people have come to see that words can, in fact, do harm. This was not always obvious (not that it is to all people), and it was only through a long and painful process of educating people about the damage that can be done with insensitive speech. Even dyed-in-the-wool racists would be reluctant to post such language in a public space, for even if they still believe another race to be inferior, popular standards and fear of being ostracized stay their tongues. However, it is still widely acceptable to formulate petty jabs around masculinity and sexuality. Such insults are normatively sexist and heterosexist and speak to the second-class status of women and homosexuals in most contemporary societies. And while we're on the subject of language...

@ krellin:

I'm not sure if you're cheeky or naive about applying strict etymological definition to the word "homophobia." Yes, a phobia is a psychological pathology, and there are probably some people who have an deep and uncontrollable fear of homosexuals. But it's clear that the word means something more than that. Like the word "homosexual," which is and ungainly mash-up of Greek and Latin, the word homophobia is an inelegant descriptor, for it speaks not to fear of but rather hatred toward homosexuals. Perhaps a better word would not feature the "-phobia" suffix but the "mis-" prefix as in "misogyny" or "misanthropy," but alas, we're stuck with "homophobia" because that's the word in common use. A new coinage would be great because it would emphasize the hate that is dominant motor behind what we currently mis-label as fear, but it's not happening any time soon.

ho·mo·pho·bi·a (hō'mə-fō'bē-ə)
n. 1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.
2. Behavior based on such a feeling.


So based on this definition, is thinking homosexuality is a sin considered homophobia?

My best friend of a decade (may he rest in peace) was gay and I really think his heart gave out because he was so harrassed by the small town community in which he lived for being different from their norm. I used to tell him the only thing I couldn't tolerate was intolerance of others. That said, we oft flung about one or two word insults at each other in jest. Although I never called him gay as an insult, primarily cause he'd just have said "why yes I am, you want to experiment with me?" But telling him to kiss my ass was always fun cause he'd respond "no thanks, I like men, not blobs" or he'd tell me to suck it and I'd say "no thanks, I like women, not dicks." The key to insults is to know your audience and your environment at that moment.

@V+ sticks and stones is legitimate. You CHOOSE to be insulted by someone else. If someone is such an asshole they are going to insult you, you are LETTING yourself be insulted instead of realizing this person: A. doesn't have the power to define you and B. Probably isn't worth the effort of being insulted by. Hey - V+ - I think you are a raging homo dickhead! Fuck off and die! --- So, are yo insulted? For real? Or did you consider the source and not let yourself be offended? If you were just insulted...you have problems. You know what - I'm Christian and I'm Polish. I went to Michigan State instead of UoM. I'm this that and the other and people have found reasons to insult me over and over again throughout the years. I can't tell you the last time I actually felt insulted by the words of some moron. A black dude knows he's black....so if someone wants to call him a name (especially when they use the same words amongst themselves), then get over it. you EMPOWER your enemy when you allow them to insult you. I watch it with my kids all the time. One teases the other - the teased child will either react or not, and the teasing will/will not continue based upon the reaction. Yeah....I'm saying people that are easily offended by words are no better than children.

Regarding my first post about homophobia....it was a joke, dude.

Yes, the language is awkward. It's entirely possible to be against something without being afraid of it. Using words like homophobia and transphobia doesn't really help the cause, and I dare say annoys a lot of people.

From a personal point of view I have no argument against gay people (and can't honestly say I've ever met a transexual), but I do take issue with the militant pink leather brigade who go out of their way to adopt ever gay stereotype they can and insist on flaunting it for all its worth. To be honest, however, it's not a matter that I often think of or care about to any significant extent.

@DJ: "thinking homosexuality is a sin considered homophobia?" in a very literal sense, only if you are contemptuous or fearful of them. I can imagine someone arguing that they treat the individuals as all other people but not what they do.

However, in common usage I think campaigning in favour of a law banning homosexuality for no other reason than you think The Village People were rubbish, would be regarded as homophobic too.

Krellin, the problem with your logic - if I call you gay, you may not be insulted. However, how does a gay person feel, knowing that I think 'gay' is an insulting term, I use it to try to put someone down?

Diplomat,
But campaigning in favor of a law banning homosexuality because the bible said so is ok?

DJones - I grew up being called a Polock. I've been told I'm stupid and naive for believing in God. Many people have called me many things over the years that are intended to insult me. OK...so dude is gay, someone calls him gay as an insult. Choices: 1. Be offended, get angry, reinforce the ASSHOLE's behavior and he will do it again. Not effective. 2. Say I sure am and offer him a kiss (not a good choice) 3. Realize the guy is an asshole, that he has the mental capacity of a snail and ignore him.

I guess the real question is: What is the benefit of allowing yourself to be insulted and get worked up about it. If enough people stop publicly being insulted by a word, it kind of loses it's punch and goes away....and then the assholes and bigots will invent a new word. In other words, you can't solve the problem of assholes and bigots - so the solution is to stop empowering every dickhead with a mouth to insult you. (I also love living in a country free enough to allow assholism and bigotry.)

chamois on occassion seems a wee bit anti-American. Not sure if he is. Not sure how many people on these forums really is. I sometimes get defensive and snide in response....but in truth, I'd buy a beer for anybody I've ever discussed issues with on these forums, because once the provocative issues are laid to rest, 99% of us have more in common than not: Humanity.

Krellin,
Yes, if people aren't insulted, the term loses effectiveness and stops being used.
But on the flip side, the word 'nigger' has lost favor for a different reason, because society as a whole decided that word was not acceptable.

"chamois on occassion seems a wee bit anti-American"

A wee bit??

@krellin - I'll toast a beer to you in your absence this coming weekend if you'll do the same. I only can think of one or two who I wouldn't have a beer with and that's not because I wouldn't, but they wouldn't. And some of the biggest "asses" on here are the one's I'd most enjoy having a beer with. And yes, that includes hellalt and TMW/Diplomat1824, although I suspect the latter isn't old enough to drink yet.

@SteevoKun: absolutely. Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; ....".

There is a tricky conundrum in the UK at the moment where the anti-discrimination law effectively says that an organisation cannot exclude people who hold different views to those of the organisation. Which doesn't sound too bad, especially when you apply it to the British National Party (a bunch of racists) who used to bar black people but it could also mean that a church must employ atheists.

@DJ: "But campaigning in favor of a law banning homosexuality because the bible said so is ok?"

I think a person should be able to campaign for it (free speech and all that). But to me, as a pastafarian, because "the bible says so" is as weak a reason as disliking The Village People. Certainly, I regard any consequent legislation as discriminatory.

Freedom of thought and freedom of action are very, very different things and speech is action.

@V+: speech is action but I would draw a distinction between campaigning for a change in a law, however abhorrent it might be, which must be acceptable as part of a democratic process, and non-deocratic action such as advocating discrimination in practice, inciting violence, etc.

Reading all of these posts, I just wanted to post my view on this.

@ the whole argument about the use of gay slurs: I'm sure that many gay men are insulted, as Dingleberry said, when someone else who isn't necessarily gay receives insults like fag or faggot or gay, simply because the insulter is referring to a part of their person and saying that it's an undesirable characteristic. Perhaps the gay adults can take this in hand and ignore it just fine, as they will be more likely to have thicker skin due to the fact that the tolerance of open sexuality was much less when they were younger, I think that much of this day is supposed to be targeted to the younger audience. A gay teenager can be the recipient of or be witness to one of these insults, and one will probably not make much a difference. However, teenagers and young adults, particularly boys, have this seemingly hive mind mentality to emphasize that anything that isn't pure masculinity and straight is completely horrible. As I'm sure we all know, teenagers have an intense need to be accepted in some way or another, as they feel a need to make connections with each other. While it's true that recent equal rights movements have been changing how youths think about sexuality, the surprisingly widespread use of sexual orientation slurs affects the young by having them pick it up as well, perhaps not even knowing what it means, or just assuming that it's a "bad word." I liked V+'s argument where there was a comparison to how we targeted racial slurs in the past, although so far no one has disagreed on this point, I think that some are to disagree because they think that sexuality is not an immutable characteristic, like race is.

@ krellin: You say that we choose to let ourselves be insulted, by simply any insult, whether it comments on our sexual orientation, race, or dare I say it, our mother. In instances where the insult comes from someone with the IQ of a toaster, or through the medium of a gaming forum, I can see how this occurs. The Internet networking system is not for people who can't take a jibe or two. However, while racial slurs are extremely rare (at least in the case with blacks), sexual orientation slurs are common to hear from people in real life, where not taking offense is much more different from observing the insult through a computer screen. These insults even come from parents and friends. Imagine a gay teenager, struggling with accepting his sexuality, and his parents go on a tirade when they see someone gay on TV, damning homosexuals as "fairy fags that all deserve to be shot", or "They're all gonna burn in hell with Hitler"? In truth, it does irreparable damage to teenagers.

To sum it up, I believe that sexual orientation is not a "chosen lifestyle", but is a characteristic that one is born with. Thus, through this I can compare the racial slurs argument, and I couldn't agree more that this day is needed. Simply "ignoring the idiots" isn't a plausible solution because those idiots pass along these habits to their children, and it only carries on the intolerance.

There is a difference between speech and action as clarified in the Constitution. I know the non US folk amongst us don't give a flying fuck about it, but the Constitution guarantees the right to free speech amongst other rights in the Bill of Rights.