"1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

I'm sure you know the rest, krellin.

So if he dies of a retarded drug overdose, boy will he feel stupid!

Judgment is the means of thought.

I don't have any sympathy for drug overdoes, users, or addicts. Don't be an idiot and get involved with shit like that is what I say.

@Tolstoy - I can judge because I can stand up to the judgment I pass. That is what that verse means. I don't do illicit drugs, much less OD on them, so I can very much judge celebrities for their drug abuse and death do to an OD.

According to the coroner's report, alcohol (a 'licit' drug) was just as much a factor as the illicit heroin he was using.

So? Alcohol alone wouldn't have done it. Therefore, it took both and I can still judge.

But even if he had just drunk himself to death, I have *never* been drunk. I don't drink to excess, so I can still judge someone who drinks to excess.

I'm always amazed when people admit their point was wrong, then act like it wasn't. See, e.g., Tolstoy. In this thread.

It's like saying driving was as much a factor as causing a fatal drunk driving accident. Well, uh, ok?

As much a factor as drinking in causing etc.

So does that mean that someone who only uses 'a little' heroin would also be justified in passing judgment? Or does the degree of usage only matter when you have government permission to use your drug of choice?

Arguably, Tolstoy, yes and no, depending.on your perspective. If you are following.the Bible, Jesus said to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and that would include abiding by Caesar's laws. So while he might feel justified in saying "the idiot got what he deserved mixing booze and heroin." or even "Idiot OD'd, how fucking stupid!" but his own rebellion against God not following Christ's command to obey Caesar is not witout penalty.

As far as krellin goes, he has removed the beam from his eye, being clean and sober, so that he might remove the mote from his neighbor's.

I was unawares. I do find it odd, though, that someone who has struggled with a demon would mock and ridicule another who lost their struggle to that same demon. Particularly when that someone is a putative follower of a man(-god) who preached forgiveness and understanding.

Krellin didn't attack the individual but the media that made the individual into some.kind of tragic hero figure.

He called the individual a "FUCKUP!". That's definitely an attack in my book.

Tolstoy -- yes, he was a fuckup...he died alone in a hotel room from a drug overdoes. This isn't a judgement, it's a *fucking fact*. If you think someone is NOT a fuckup who sits alone in a hotel room and dies, then you have low standards.

My post, though, was more pointed at the MEDIA that has been telling us great stories about what a standup guy he is. No....he's not a standup guy. He plays the role of a standup guy on TV. Apart from that, he's an unknown that apparently had a serious, unconfronted drug problem. The media would serve society a whole lot better by telling THAT sad story.

As for me...I AM A FUCKUP to...yeah, I'm a alcoholic. Ive *admitted* it...I've CONFRONTED it...and I've CORRECTED it. I would encourage anyone else to do that same. I would encourage anyone that needs to to PM me and discuss the problem, frankly.

But as for me not judging lest I be judged....uh, I HAVE been judged, dumbass. I was judged constantly **whether or not anyone knew I was a drunk** because my behavior revealed it anyway.

I might also ad that you misinterpret that scripture...as most do...to mean you should stick you head in the sand and ignore people's problems so that you don't get judged. WRONG-O, pally....that's not what it means at all.

Whatever else was going on in the dead guys life, I don't know. MAy have been a great human being, bla blah blah...but as far as alcohol and drugs go, he was a FUCKUP. I'm not judging his entire person....I am judging the very specifically revealed fact of his fucked up substance abuse problem...which the media has lagely and mostly ignored....but which IN FACT is the MOST IMPORTANT part of his story that kids need to hear about.

He calls himself a fuckup too when he falls off the wagon. As long as he treats all fuckups equally, himself included, where's the problem.

Besides, aren't you an atheist? What do you care if he decides to ignore parts of a book you view as fictional?

So I'm guessing I was spot on with my view of your statement, then, krellin?

Yes. OK...board game night with fam....see ya later.

"That is what that verse means. "

No it isn't. It means "judge not lest ye be judged."

Taken in context Thucy. Are you a lifelong Christian who has studied your Bible in Greek and Hebrew? Single verses were not written that way and taking just one short snippets as an entire statement is twisting scripture. Our Lord clearly intended the follow on to apply. We are not to judge unless we feel we can stand up to the scrutiny we jidge by.. That is what it means and only an atheist trying to be an asshole would show his ignorance and.claim otherwise.

...Much as I'd like to be an atheist being an asshole (I won't say "trying" to be an asshole, because let's face it...I really don't have to try, I'm a natural...)

Meh.

Just tune it out, krellin...

Like the Zimmerman Case and The Royal Baby...

Who cares?
Apparently millions and millions of people...
And thus, I have no hope for the future...
I never really did anyway, but eh...whatever...so we lose a few IQ points collectively...

What else is new?

I will say this, albeit with a bit of dark humor--

Whatever happened to going out with a bit of a bang, or at least some good shock value?

I mean, pills, pills, and more pills...that's not exciting!
Where's the drama in that?
Where's the originality?
Come on...

Give me Hemingway blasting his head off with a shotgun any day!
Or Alan Turing and his cyanide-laced apple!
Or if you're gonna do pills...at least make it grotesque enough to be interesting...
Elvis died on or near the crapper...that's something...

Apparently it's not true that Lupe Velez died with her head in the toilet...but hey. at least there's a fun element of urban legend there...

Alexander Hamilton, died in a duel, now there's a memorable way to go...

Virginia Woolf decided to go all Ophelia on us and drown herself...

Come ON celebrities--how dare you become so bland and boring in your suicides!

...It's almost like you're sick of entertaining an ever-more-prying, ever-stupefied mass...

Lots of artistic and creative people commit suicide or die from overdose (either intentionally or accidentally). "All great art comes from suffering" and all that. People self-medicate in ways that aren't always beneficial, but that shouldn't be a surprise, especially in a country stigmatizes mental illness and using the wrong kinds of chemicals to treat it oneself as much as the United States does.

As to the proper interpretation of Christ's words, I think everybody is half-right. It doesn't mean there should be no judgment, but that you should avoid hypocrisy. But there is something more than that, and to understand it we should consider the whole statement:

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

The judgment we make is not for the purposes of superiority or even determining right behavior, but for helping in Christian love. The purpose of self-judgment is to ensure that you are best able to help your brother. Ultimately in this life we must all decide if our behavior does so, although I've got some hunches about some folks in this thread.

Agreed, ckr. And we, on this forum, do tend to not apply that last part of "Christian love" when we judge celebs or even each other as often as we should.

ck - I think you hit it spot on. In the book of Hebrews, it tells us that we are to confess our weaknesses to one another, that we are to support one another daily so that the deceitfulness of sin doesn't overtake us.

Well, if I don't "judge" what someone's weaknesses are, then how am I gong to support them to overcome their particular weakness. Trust me, if you come up to me and simply say, "Hey, krellin, have a good day, don't sin..." versus saying to me in knowledge (and "judgement") "Hey, krellin, have a good day, stay away from your alcohol triggers, don't drink...call me if you get in to trouble..." ONE of those will be much more affective. One of those implies that you are "judging" me for my weakness...but I would much rather have a loving brother loving me and calling me out than have a brother NOT judge me for fear of violating some principle, and instead stand by and watch me self-destruct.

The mis-insterprtation of "judge not" is one of the most aggregious and offensive things to me...because it means people stand by and watch others fail. And WHY? Because they are afraid of being judged themselves? Bah....that's called selfishness...

Similar note, Paul discusses the body of Christ and says that all parts of the body are equal..the eye, the legs, the ears…whatever, we are all equal in the body. AND, when one part of the body grieves, ALL parts of the body are to grieve. So, there again, if I am failing in a sin, you, my brother, are supposed to grieve with me and be in pain with me. And, again, this cannot be done if you are standing to the side, arms crossed, not involved because you are afraid of “judging” me.

Yeah, I don't really think that verse is saying that, Draug. It doesn't mean, "If you haven't done the same exact sin that the person you're judging has, then have at it. All your other sins that are just as bad are not relevant at all."

Sorry, I somehow missed ck's post and after and the fact that he had given an actual good answer before I posted that. So never mind.

You can be a fuckup and still be loved. You can be a fuckup and still be missed.

Someone who dies friendless and loveless, alone in a hotel room, goes quietly. Someone who is much loved and much missed goes with fanfare. Celebrities generally are much loved, and when they go are much missed. The fact that Monteith had many friends and fans who express a sense of loss and sadness at his passing should be no suprise, even if he was a fuckup. Many of them probably are facing the cold reality that it easily could have been them.

Monteith was a druggie fuckup. He confronted it, he corrected it. Then he lapsed, as many addicts do, and he died.

krellin, the reason this actor's death is fairly big news is due to one reason: he's handsome. If he were not a good-looking actor on a TV show loved by every drama girl then this wouldn't be a story at all.

I don't think the culture is glorifying him because of his drug use. Ugly, smelly, poor people who die from drug abuse never get glorified. Rather, he's glorified because his fans are sad he can't be pretty on TV anymore. Now, that still says something pretty unpleasant about our society, but it's different than what you're saying.