Roe v. Wade SCOTUS Opinion leak confirmed

[Matticus13]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/supreme-cour ... 59730.html

The states will control access to abortion, assuming they reverse the precedent set by Roe v. Wade. Whoever leaked that opinion is going to prison....

The silver lining for Democrats would be, this could really rile up the base just before midterms. Republicans get the W for now, though.

[Jamiet99uk]

Awful, inhumane, Christian fascist lawmaking.

This isn't about saving lives, it's about controlling women's bodies.

[flash2015]

I am pro freedom of choice...but I think in the longer term this will be a good thing.

Roe vs. Wade has poisoned political debate in the USA for way too long. I am tired of the Supreme Court nonsense...which ultimately all came down to trying to stack the court one way or the other on the issue.

Most people are on the middle on this. The people that want abortion to be banned even in the case of rape and incest and the people that want absolutely no restrictions AT ALL on abortion are a minority. While there will be variability between states, I am hoping over time some more maintainable middle-ground can be found on this...as has happened in most other Western countries.

For Democrats, I think this is definitely a good thing. With inflation being so bad they previously were looking down the barrel of an absolute rout in the midterms. While things are still pretty bad for them, I think this gives them a glimmer of hope for holding the Senate (the House is still gone).

When I was a kid the left and the Church were allies...as they had common purpose in helping the poor and disadvantaged. Democrats should use this as an opportunity to mend some of those bridges.

[Jamiet99uk]

Most people are on the middle on this. The people that want abortion to be banned even in the case of rape and incest and the people that want absolutely no restrictions AT ALL on abortion are a minority. While there will be variability between states, I am hoping over time some more maintainable middle-ground can be found on this...as has happened in most other Western countries.

This will take decades, and in the meantime thousands of women will die, or be forced to bear children they are unable to support, causing untold distress.

Roe vs Wade is not a piece of UK law, but it is emblematic of women’s rights across the developed world. Safe and legal abortion - and safe and legal contraception - are absolute requirements for equality between men and women; without them women are at risk of great physical harm, and of suffering endemic inequality across society. It reduces women back to being primarily procreation machines, and sends that message to *everyone*, setting back decades of hard-fought progress.

I am well aware of the arguments against allowing abortion. I do not agree with those arguments and never will, because I do not believe that a fertilised ovum has the same status as a fertile female human.

Banning abortion does not reduce abortion rates. This is well evidenced. It simply makes more women die from unsafe, unregulated abortion procedures. Women will abort pregnancies regardless and have been doing so for thousands of years. Banning them won’t change that.

[flash2015]

I don't think it is going to be as bad as what you think. There will be activism on a major, major scale on this. There will be big pushes to get women across state lines to get abortions. Conservative states won't be able to stop it.

When conservative states start trying to jail people for having abortions or providing abortion services, there will be a lot of blowback for them.

[Octavious]

You're really channeling the inner Machiavelli today, Flash. It's an intriguing insight into elements of left wing thinking in the US.

I am well aware of the arguments against allowing abortion. I do not agree with those arguments and never will, because I do not believe that a fertilised ovum has the same status as a fertile female human.

That's a curious turn of phrase. Are you implying that a fertile female human has a different value to an unfertile human female? For the purposes of understanding for the rest of this discussion, do you consider all human life to have equal value, or do you differentiate between, say, the elderly, young adults, new born babies, those suffering from severe mental impairment say?

[flash2015]

You're really channeling the inner Machiavelli today, Flash. It's an intriguing insight into elements of left wing thinking in the US.

Wait what? I am not left wing. I am for rational debate on issues and finding compromise between competing interests.

And I am decidedly pro-capitalist.

[Octavious]

From the perspective of the US you are left wing. I don't recall you ever taking the position of America's right of centre party. As for capitalism, the days where the battle lines between left and right revolved around being pro and anti capitalism ended long before I was born. Most left wing politicians are capitalists, with differences to the right largely limited to disagreements over regulation.

[flash2015]

From the perspective of the US you are left wing. I don't recall you ever taking the position of America's right of centre party. As for capitalism, the days where the battle lines between left and right revolved around being pro and anti capitalism ended long before I was born. Most left wing politicians are capitalists, with differences to the right largely limited to disagreements over regulation.

That may be what you believe but this just isn't true.

And I have done multiple of the political compass nonsense things (which are from the US primarily)...and I come out about dead center on the left right access with a libertarian lean. The Pew Research one even marks me as ambivalent right.

Just because I thought Trump was bad doesn't make me a lefty. Trump was bad because he didn't really believe in democracy...and because he constantly wanted to divide the country.

[Jamiet99uk]

You're really channeling the inner Machiavelli today, Flash. It's an intriguing insight into elements of left wing thinking in the US.

I am well aware of the arguments against allowing abortion. I do not agree with those arguments and never will, because I do not believe that a fertilised ovum has the same status as a fertile female human.

That's a curious turn of phrase. Are you implying that a fertile female human has a different value to an unfertile human female? For the purposes of understanding for the rest of this discussion, do you consider all human life to have equal value, or do you differentiate between, say, the elderly, young adults, new born babies, those suffering from severe mental impairment say?

To make it simple for you:

A human woman has greater worth than an unborn fertilized ovum.

[Jamiet99uk]

From the perspective of the US you are left wing. I don't recall you ever taking the position of America's right of centre party. As for capitalism, the days where the battle lines between left and right revolved around being pro and anti capitalism ended long before I was born. Most left wing politicians are capitalists, with differences to the right largely limited to disagreements over regulation.

America's right of centre party is the Democrats.

America's extreme right party is the Republicans.

[Octavious]

To make it simple for you:

A human woman has greater worth than an unborn fertilized ovum.

That is indeed simple, but it utterly fails to answer my question. I quite genuinely believe that the way we value life beyond birth may play an important role in this

[Octavious]

From the perspective of the US you are left wing. I don't recall you ever taking the position of America's right of centre party. As for capitalism, the days where the battle lines between left and right revolved around being pro and anti capitalism ended long before I was born. Most left wing politicians are capitalists, with differences to the right largely limited to disagreements over regulation.

America's right of centre party is the Democrats.

America's extreme right party is the Republicans.

From the perspective of a left wing Brit, certainly

[Octavious]

From the perspective of the US you are left wing. I don't recall you ever taking the position of America's right of centre party. As for capitalism, the days where the battle lines between left and right revolved around being pro and anti capitalism ended long before I was born. Most left wing politicians are capitalists, with differences to the right largely limited to disagreements over regulation.

That may be what you believe but this just isn't true.

And I have done multiple of the political compass nonsense things (which are from the US primarily)...and I come out about dead center on the left right access with a libertarian lean. The Pew Research one even marks me as ambivalent right.

Just because I thought Trump was bad doesn't make me a lefty. Trump was bad because he didn't really believe in democracy...and because he constantly wanted to divide the country.

I find it hard to believe, considering we apparently fall in pretty much the exact same spot on the political compass, that we disagree on quite as much as we do

[Jamiet99uk]

To make it simple for you:

A human woman has greater worth than an unborn fertilized ovum.

That is indeed simple, but it utterly fails to answer my question. I quite genuinely believe that the way we value life beyond birth may play an important role in this

Your question is whataboutery and my position is very clear.

[flash2015]

I find it hard to believe, considering we apparently fall in pretty much the exact same spot on the political compass, that we disagree on quite as much as we do

On many things we are probably less different in opinion than you think.

But at least from what it appears to me, you seem to find enjoyment in trying to get people upset (or at least overly animated/frustrated)...which is not why I have these discussions and is something I don't like. I believe this is the biggest point of friction here.

[Crazy Anglican]

Trump definitely nudged me toward the left too. I am not as sure as flash seems to be that overturning Roe v. Wade is a good thing for the country. I doubt seriously that there will be any mending of fences between Evangelicals and the left, since this will likely open the door to lots of state level challenges to abortion rights and if you're a poor teenager in Louisiana, good luck getting to Illinois or Colorado for an abortion. It will likely be bad for the state and the church. That's my initial pessimistic view though.

[Jamiet99uk]

Trump definitely nudged me toward the left too. I am not as sure as flash seems to be that overturning Roe v. Wade is a good thing for the country. I doubt seriously that there will be any mending of fences between Evangelicals and the left, since this will likely open the door to lots of state level challenges to abortion rights and if you're a poor teenager in Louisiana, good luck getting to Illinois or Colorado for an abortion. It will likely be bad for the state and the church. That's my initial pessimistic view though.

Bearing in mind that you're a religious person, massive props for this reasonable, realistic post. Very well articulated.

[Octavious]

To make it simple for you:

A human woman has greater worth than an unborn fertilized ovum.

That is indeed simple, but it utterly fails to answer my question. I quite genuinely believe that the way we value life beyond birth may play an important role in this

Your question is whataboutery and my position is very clear.

There's nothing whataboutery about it, nor is it a particularly difficult question to answer. It is not about searching for inconsistencies with which to attack your position, but about better understanding the context in which your position resides

[Jamiet99uk]

That is indeed simple, but it utterly fails to answer my question. I quite genuinely believe that the way we value life beyond birth may play an important role in this

Your question is whataboutery and my position is very clear.

There's nothing whataboutery about it, nor is it a particularly difficult question to answer. It is not about searching for inconsistencies with which to attack your position, but about better understanding the context in which your position resides

I never said anything about "young adults" or "elderly people", and I have clarified the relevant points.

If you have a sensible question for me, please state it clearly.

Otherwise, kindly fuck off.