M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[BunnyGo]

No, I'm not happy with you being against Flum confirming what he means. Regardless of whether or not you're right, insisting that your interpretation is correct and not being patient enough to make sure that's what he meant is scummy.

I'm all for getting on board with Flum, because if we don't coordinate with him, we lose. Sorry, I was testy.

I'm still salty about Jimbo. I'm trying to remember why so many people went from scumreading him to him not being a leading candidate. And how he managed to push all our daykills while not actively being read as pushing them.

I think my current reads are:

Probably scum: Macca, Jamiet
People I'm willing to vote if the group wants: Chaqa, kgray
People i'd rather not vote today: rdr, dargo, damo, me (BUNNY!)

That's more of a willing to vote list not a read list. The two things are different. I'll post mine by way of example.

fair enough. I've been doing reads more slowly via the tldr;s of my ballads.

[damo666]

SCUM Willing to Vote

Chaqa Chaqa
Bunny darg
Macca rdr
kgray ...
darg Macca
rdr Bunny
Jamie kgray
Damo Jamie

TOWN Do not wish to vote

My vote will be for the highest on my willing to vote list unless unviable when it goes to the next one on the list with a viable wagon. For example I will only vote Macca if all of chaqa darg and rdr and unviable. It can also be deduced I will only vote Jamie if it is a Jamie v me battle.

[damo666]

@Bunny,

your ISOs are just a boring summary.

The tldr is sufficient.

Damo

[Chaqa]

SCUM Willing to Vote

Chaqa Chaqa
Bunny darg
Macca rdr
kgray ...
darg Macca
rdr Bunny
Jamie kgray
Damo Jamie

TOWN Do not wish to vote

My vote will be for the highest on my willing to vote list unless unviable when it goes to the next one on the list with a viable wagon. For example I will only vote Macca if all of chaqa darg and rdr and unviable. It can also be deduced I will only vote Jamie if it is a Jamie v me battle.

I don't follow the two people per row thing

[BunnyGo]

@Bunny,

your ISOs are just a boring summary.

The tldr is sufficient.

Damo

Yes, but the summary is the footnotes/endnotes and reference section. You don't need to take my word for it.

Also you post was largely incomprehensible due to formatting. Why are there two columns? What are the ellipses?

[BunnyGo]

SCUM Willing to Vote

Chaqa Chaqa
Bunny darg
Macca rdr
kgray ...
darg Macca
rdr Bunny
Jamie kgray
Damo Jamie

TOWN Do not wish to vote

My vote will be for the highest on my willing to vote list unless unviable when it goes to the next one on the list with a viable wagon. For example I will only vote Macca if all of chaqa darg and rdr and unviable. It can also be deduced I will only vote Jamie if it is a Jamie v me battle.

So...if I'm reading this right, Macca and I are scum you won't vote for. darg and rdr are town you WILL vote for....

Cool story. Very helpful in understanding what you're thinking and believing this is based on hunting.

[rdrivera2005]

The thing is, Jamie, that I suspect at this late stage that ALL of us are walking on egg shells. We have 'feelings' and 'expectations' about what others would do, but maybe we are wrong. You, for instance, I think believe that I scum read you (judging from your response yesterday, saying something about 'if that makes me scum vote for me') But you have been a steady townread for me.

Also, today, really, we need to clear the deck. We have NO voting mechanical clears (other than flum...) And scum have been incredible at hiding.

But today, for us it is vote right or lose. For SCUM, it is win today, or have another chance tomorrow.

I therefore understand your hesitation about chaqa. NO one is putting up a fight for him. But that doesn't mean I expect scum to defend him. They can let him go. In a weird wifom way, that gives towny points in my head for you and bunny. For being willing to LOOK like scum protecting. Scum has no reason to protect anyone. This is not the end for them if we hit a scum.

I really like this post from Dargo. Scum have 4 shots at winning, so his chances are really high. I would say around 93.75%, not considering possible Doc saves but I will let the Math to others. So, they won't take big risks or pile on a town. This doesn't mean they won't go for a win if they have a chance, but it need to be a clear shot.
This also makes me less worried with the big wagon on Chaqa. I don't think scum will pile on a town so early.

[damo666]

SCUM Willing to Vote

Chaqa Chaqa
Bunny darg
Macca rdr
kgray ...
darg Macca
rdr Bunny
Jamie kgray
Damo Jamie

TOWN Do not wish to vote

My vote will be for the highest on my willing to vote list unless unviable when it goes to the next one on the list with a viable wagon. For example I will only vote Macca if all of chaqa darg and rdr and unviable. It can also be deduced I will only vote Jamie if it is a Jamie v me battle.

I don't follow the two people per row thing

Sorry the spacing not as I intended.

Two columns. Left S->T top to bottom. Right willing to vote today top to bottom.

[Chaqa]

SCUM Willing to Vote

Chaqa Chaqa
Bunny darg
Macca rdr
kgray ...
darg Macca
rdr Bunny
Jamie kgray
Damo Jamie

TOWN Do not wish to vote

My vote will be for the highest on my willing to vote list unless unviable when it goes to the next one on the list with a viable wagon. For example I will only vote Macca if all of chaqa darg and rdr and unviable. It can also be deduced I will only vote Jamie if it is a Jamie v me battle.

So...if I'm reading this right, Macca and I are scum you won't vote for. darg and rdr are town you WILL vote for....

Cool story. Very helpful in understanding what you're thinking and believing this is based on hunting.

Could damo's post be some sort of thing where he left in stuff he meant to remove? Like, damo could be scum and might have just slipped up?

Or is it just incomprehensible?

[rdrivera2005]

My interpretation is above:

1) Bunny first means "bunny's question is to be answered"
2) Then the answer (but the order confuses me)
3) Then back to his actual vote.

The only odd thing, then, is that flum is NOT voting his top scumread. And since he can't talk clearly in this seance, he is seeing that others will join him on chaqa, most likely?

He's not answering scumread. He's telling me there's nobody that he won't vote if we as a group want to override.

He's saying we shouldn't just sheep him to Chaqa. he'll be around at EOD and will follow a large group if we want.

I agree with this interpretation and it's really good for town. If we agree on a different wagon he is stating he will follow the majority to avoid giving scum a chance.

Now we have to decide if we want two wagons or if we decide before and consolidate on only one wagon. I think consolidating is safer, but want to hear other opinions.

[BunnyGo]

SCUM Willing to Vote

Chaqa Chaqa
Bunny darg
Macca rdr
kgray ...
darg Macca
rdr Bunny
Jamie kgray
Damo Jamie

TOWN Do not wish to vote

My vote will be for the highest on my willing to vote list unless unviable when it goes to the next one on the list with a viable wagon. For example I will only vote Macca if all of chaqa darg and rdr and unviable. It can also be deduced I will only vote Jamie if it is a Jamie v me battle.

I don't follow the two people per row thing

Sorry the spacing not as I intended.

Two columns. Left S->T top to bottom. Right willing to vote today top to bottom.

Ok...I was reading it correctly. I'm your 2nd highest scum read, but you'll not vote for me except in a contest with your highest town read. Real clever.

[kgray]

I think our best chance to hit scum today is Rivera. Here are the things that stand out to me from his ISO:

• I think Rivera's D1 is mostly NAI until about an hour before EOD when he says he's tempted to vote Jamie. 16 minutes before EOD he responds to teacon's explanation of his Rivera scumread, but he still didn't leave teacon to join a viable wagon. Yes the votes were 4-4-3 at the time, but teacon wasn't getting any more attention and it seemed obvious that he wasn't going to be the DK. The fact that he said he'd vote for Jamie and instead chose to stay on teacon really strikes me as scum avoiding placing a decisive vote. I mean, I got tons of heat for breaking the tie... So it makes a lot of sense that scum!Rivera would rather stay out of it.

• N1 Rivera complains about the runaway wagon on Flum. I get that he wasn't around for the very EoD1, and I'm not scumreading him for that, but he definitely had a chance to cast a vote that would matter and he didn't take it. He basically scumreads 3/4 of the later Flum voters and gives bo town points for "trying to shake things up" and all that combined with him leaving his vote on teacon is really not sitting well with me.

• He said D2 that he had a townread on Flum so he would have voted Jamie over him... but he never said anything about townreading Flum D1. He doesn't even mention him D1 at all, and only responds to one joking comment by Flum.

• N2 he comes in with an irritated post about HR dying that I thought was really towny at the time. But in hindsight it bothers me a lot that he didn't stick to his "vote for people on the HR wagon" stance, which is mostly what he talked about N2. I thought scum wouldn't bother limiting their vote options that way, which is part of why I was townreading him for that statement, but then he didn't follow through so it seems like artificial outrage looking back.

• D3 was Maniac's games, and Rivera spent a lot of D3 scumreading Chaqa. He was sort of defending me and it feels like he was trying to encourage my tunnel of Chaqa. The he doesn't want to vote for his biggest scumread Chaqa, which I understand is fair because of Maniac's game, but D4 he completely forgets about how strongly he scumreads Chaqa and finds more reasons not to vote for him.

• I hate that he comes out the gate D4 pushing the theory that the Maniac kill/save meant scum have a doctor.

• Also D4 he sheeps Vecna and darg onto Macca "to consolidate" with 28 hours left to go in the phase. When I called him out on this I moved to the top of his scumlist, so idk maybe that's omgus, but this really feels like another attempt to give excuses for his votes without defending his reads.

• His reaction to ghug's flip was that he should have stayed on my wagon and only moved to prevent a tie, but that he forgot about Flum's vote. But the only reason him staying on me would have resulted with me being the kill was that the double vote was on me. I think scum knew at that point that seth was the DV, considering he was the next NK. I was seth's obvious DK preference, and I think Rivera accidentally gave away that he knew seth was the DV.

• He suggests that Flum is going to decide the game and that anybody who can't be online EoD should just sheep Flum. At that point, Flum had made his preference of a Chaqa vote known (with me being his other top choice) and I really think it's possible that scum!Rivera is trying to subtly lead us to a Chaqa miskill.

tldr: a lot of Rivera's contributions to the game have been complaints about how badly town is messing up, and yet in most cases he doesn't appear to be trying to avoid/fix those mistakes. He complains about the DK choices but didn't seem to care who is actually the DK until now. I think it's because he only needs one more miskill, and I'm really suspicious he's counting on mine and Chaqa's tunneling of each other to get it.

[damo666]

SCUM Willing to Vote

Chaqa Chaqa
Bunny darg
Macca rdr
kgray ...
darg Macca
rdr Bunny
Jamie kgray
Damo Jamie

TOWN Do not wish to vote

My vote will be for the highest on my willing to vote list unless unviable when it goes to the next one on the list with a viable wagon. For example I will only vote Macca if all of chaqa darg and rdr and unviable. It can also be deduced I will only vote Jamie if it is a Jamie v me battle.

So...if I'm reading this right, Macca and I are scum you won't vote for. darg and rdr are town you WILL vote for....

Cool story. Very helpful in understanding what you're thinking and believing this is based on hunting.

The thing is although I don't particularly scumread darg nor rdr I am pretty damn convinced on of them must be mechanically scum. Although I scumlean Macca and you more than rdr and darg you could both be town, so if the Chaqa crumbles I would rather vote darg or rdr rather than you or Macca even though it is counter to my reads. I hope this makes sense.

[rdrivera2005]

SCUM Willing to Vote

Chaqa Chaqa
Bunny darg
Macca rdr
kgray ...
darg Macca
rdr Bunny
Jamie kgray
Damo Jamie

TOWN Do not wish to vote

My vote will be for the highest on my willing to vote list unless unviable when it goes to the next one on the list with a viable wagon. For example I will only vote Macca if all of chaqa darg and rdr and unviable. It can also be deduced I will only vote Jamie if it is a Jamie v me battle.

I don't understand how this can possibly make sense at kilo. If you think a person is scummier then the other why you choose to vote in a different order?

[rdrivera2005]

SCUM Willing to Vote

Chaqa Chaqa
Bunny darg
Macca rdr
kgray ...
darg Macca
rdr Bunny
Jamie kgray
Damo Jamie

TOWN Do not wish to vote

My vote will be for the highest on my willing to vote list unless unviable when it goes to the next one on the list with a viable wagon. For example I will only vote Macca if all of chaqa darg and rdr and unviable. It can also be deduced I will only vote Jamie if it is a Jamie v me battle.

So...if I'm reading this right, Macca and I are scum you won't vote for. darg and rdr are town you WILL vote for....

Cool story. Very helpful in understanding what you're thinking and believing this is based on hunting.

I laughed loud at my workplace with this comment, had to +1 it. It's bizarre even for Damo. I can understand this in a regular daykill but not kilo.

[kgray]

The only odd thing, then, is that flum is NOT voting his top scumread. And since he can't talk clearly in this seance, he is seeing that others will join him on chaqa, most likely?

He's not answering scumread. He's telling me there's nobody that he won't vote if we as a group want to override.

He's saying we shouldn't just sheep him to Chaqa. he'll be around at EOD and will follow a large group if we want.

I agree with this interpretation and it's really good for town. If we agree on a different wagon he is stating he will follow the majority to avoid giving scum a chance.

Now we have to decide if we want two wagons or if we decide before and consolidate on only one wagon. I think consolidating is safer, but want to hear other opinions.

Yes, but of course Flum was always going to do that! He was never going to place an anchor vote on a vanity wagon and leave it there! Why would you think he would do that?

But I agree, consolidating seems safer to me.

[damo666]

The thing is although I don't particularly scumread darg or rdr I am pretty damn convinced one of them must be mechanically scum. Although I scumlean Macca and you more than rdr and darg you could both be town, so if the Chaqa wagon crumbles I would rather vote darg or rdr than you or Macca even though it is counter to my reads. I hope this makes sense.


Typos amended.

[damo666]

SCUM Willing to Vote

Chaqa Chaqa
Bunny darg
Macca rdr
kgray ...
darg Macca
rdr Bunny
Jamie kgray
Damo Jamie

TOWN Do not wish to vote

My vote will be for the highest on my willing to vote list unless unviable when it goes to the next one on the list with a viable wagon. For example I will only vote Macca if all of chaqa darg and rdr and unviable. It can also be deduced I will only vote Jamie if it is a Jamie v me battle.

I don't understand how this can possibly make sense at kilo. If you think a person is scummier then the other why you choose to vote in a different order?

My reads are weak. I am more comfortable with my mechanics analysis.

[Jamiet99uk]

##Vote BunnyGo

This was in response to my question.
BunnyGo is now Fluminator's second highest scumread.
It's clear.

It isn’t clear. You’re just mucking the waters.

I asked him if Damo was his #2 scumread.
His first post after me asking this question was just ##VOTE BUNNYGO.

[rdrivera2005]

He's not answering scumread. He's telling me there's nobody that he won't vote if we as a group want to override.

He's saying we shouldn't just sheep him to Chaqa. he'll be around at EOD and will follow a large group if we want.

I agree with this interpretation and it's really good for town. If we agree on a different wagon he is stating he will follow the majority to avoid giving scum a chance.

Now we have to decide if we want two wagons or if we decide before and consolidate on only one wagon. I think consolidating is safer, but want to hear other opinions.

Yes, but of course Flum was always going to do that! He was never going to place an anchor vote on a vanity wagon and leave it there! Why would you think he would do that?

But I agree, consolidating seems safer to me.

Because we can't really communicate with him or know if he would be available EOD? People have lives outside this game and we can't always be available.

Macca for example can't be count to be online at EOD and if the day ended on Wednesday or tomorrow I won't be around at EOD due to real life commitments.