M1011 - Revenge of the Space Mutants - Game Thread

[rdrivera2005]

In the first post, rdrivera implies he thinks I am scum posting "filler", but did not vote for me. In the second post he find another reason to scum read me and is willing to vote for me, after I already had a vote. I think there is a good chance rdrivera is scum.

The first post I was still expecting you might make an actual post about the quotes. Then you cast a vote that I don't like, specially the reasoning.
I can follow Food push on Xorxes, as Xorxes answer to Food wasn't what I expect (I expect he will say it was a joke). But your reasoning is forced, I don't see why misremembering Kgray alignments is scum indicative for Xorxes and he puts a lot of effort as scum as we saw two (or three)games ago.

I gave 2 specific reasons for voting for xorxes, the first was the points foodcoats made, which you do not seem to have a problem with. As for the second reason, did you see my follow up posts? xorxes did not just misremember something about kgray's alignment, he cited how kgray played as scum in a past game as a reason to town read her this game, which seems more like a fabrication.

When you voted for me you did not give any specific reasons why you did not like my vote for xorxes. Can you explain what you think is scum lindicative about the 3 reasons you did give:
1. seem as "town who doesn't fear to push Xorxes"
2. the quotes
3. overall behavior

1- I said it already, your push on Xorxes looks like something scum will do to seems hunting. The reasoning seems forced to me (sorry you don't like this word). And you said "foodcoats has some good points", but didn't said which points. This kind of vague agreement also enters in a zone that I find scummy.
2- It's filler and make the thread harder to read.
3- I don't like the pushes you are doing. On Xorxes. On me (you questioned two townreads on me, without reasoning). You are questioning Kgray about Tom when I think you two where in a game where we discussed that Tom trick (and seems you didn't learn anything after least game D1). So, I wonder if it's more likely town Bozo wil play this way or scum Bozo and I find more likely scum Bozo.

[foodcoats]

The xorxian File
Prepared by High Inquisitor foodcoats

The below is a restatement of the case against xorxes, for those who were unable to follow it during its unfolding, and in particular for the sake of Tom Bombabil, who has taken up the mantle of xorxian White Knight.

Some quotes have been shortened for brevity.

xorxes' first vote is for Nephthys, and xorxes' explained reasoning is that Chaqa is voting Nephthys, and in M55, Chaqa (as town) correctly voted dargorygel (as scum) as his first vote:

I think that the argument that one of the damo voters may be scum is interesting. But I'm going to ##vote Neph because that was Chaqa's first vote, and Chaqa's first vote last game proved to be accurate. Also because of the end vote, and because there's not much more to go on at this point.

I pointed out that for this logic to work, xorxes must believe Chaqa is town, and asked several questions on the matter. xorxes directly disagreed that he had any strong view of Chaqa as town, or that Chaqa's reads were very good:

I do think he would bus without batting an eyelid as scum, but I doubt it's as straightforward as that his first vote is always a bus.

I think you missed the point of my question. It seems that you must, in this circumstance, be presupposing that Chaqa is town. Especially as you have said above that Chaqa, as scum, may or may not bus. Therefore, there is no reason to believe Nephthys would be scum, unless you believe Chaqa is town, and that town!Chaqa has a good gut-check.

Why do you believe Chaqa is town?

I didn't believe he was town or scum at the time, I have a very slight townlean of Chaqa at the moment.

You seem to think that I have a strong conviction that Neph is scum based on a strong conviction that Chaqa is town and a strong conviction that Chaqa has good reads when he is town. None of those things are even remotely close to the truth though.

I continued to question xorxes, as this claim that he neither town-read Chaqa, nor thought Chaqa has good reads as town, was directly in contradiction to the reasoning for his opening vote. My inquisition would have already stopped if xorxes had replied as town do. Some reasonable explanations might have been that it was just a way to start the voting off, that he was having fun, or to give reasons as to why he thought Nephthys was scum that were unrelated to Chaqa. Instead, this is what xorxes said:

I'm not inventing anything here. The below is your train of reasoning for voting Nephthys.

1. Chaqa's first vote last game was for dargorygel.
2. Last game, Chaqa was town, and dargorygel was scum.
3. This game, Chaqa's first vote was for Nephthys.
4. ?
5. Therefore, I, xorxes, will vote for Nephthys.

(4) is a question mark because you never expressly stated your leap in logic, but leap you did. It was precisely my point that you must presume Chaqa is town, or your original vote did not make sense for the reasons you gave, except for Neph's END vote being scummy.

You progressively elaborated on this idea by calling Chaqa a "litmus test," but what could that mean, in the context of sheeping Chaqa onto Neph, except that you believe Chaqa is town and has good scumdar? The only other explanation I have for the below is that you were justifying sheeping Chaqa. Are you saying that your proposal is we lynch Neph to evaluate the quality of Chaqa's scumdar?

You're way overanalyzing this. I voted for Neph because it felt good to do so with what I had so far at the time, and Chaqa having voted for him was an incentive because I did the same last game and it turned out to be a good hunch. You making such a huge deal of such triviality makes me confortable with my current vote.

…

My initial vote was not a complete joke, and Neph may very well be scum. I don't believe you're misunderstanding anything, I believe you understand perfectly well the extent of my seriousness and that you are just fabricating a lot of smoke.

We can see that xorxes is still not giving any rationale for why Neph "may very well be scum," which is a completely empty statement if you are town (obviously, anyone, except for known-town-self, may be scum when you are town). xorxes is claiming that he had reasons prior to Chaqa voting for Neph for voting Neph, but has not actually explained what these reasons are. xorxes is stewing in contradictions at this point. This is not town behaviour at all; town would not be afraid to admit that it was a weak vote. And no other townies would find that weird, because first votes are almost without exception very weak and based on nothing. But xorxes continues to insist that he had an underlying rationale for voting Nephthys, and that I am ignoring it, even though he has never stated it. He insists his vote did not have anything to do with his reads of Chaqa, even though he expressly stated that in his opening vote.

Finally, after much struggling, xorxes was able to put together a convincingly townie response. However, he still does not explain what he initially thought of Nephthys's first two posts, so now we are back to xorxes claiming he voted for Nephthys because of Chaqa's votes. As I later pointed out, the simplest response would've been that xorxes agreed with Chaqa's logic that Neph is trying to replicate his scummy-town game from M55 to cover his scummy-scumness. I believe xorxes did not realize that he had such an easy way out of the mess he made for himself because he was too cowed by my inquisition and the fear that comes with being caught D1.

My initial vote was not a complete joke, and Neph may very well be scum. I don't believe you're misunderstanding anything, I believe you understand perfectly well the extent of my seriousness and that you are just fabricating a lot of smoke.

I am sorry xorxes, but this explanation still does not make sense.

You are now claiming you seriously voted Neph for reasons you have nowhere explained.

This was your vote:

I think that the argument that one of the damo voters may be scum is interesting. But I'm going to ##vote Neph because that was Chaqa's first vote, and Chaqa's first vote last game proved to be accurate. Also because of the end vote, and because there's not much more to go on at this point.

Do you understand why I am confused? You specifically ignored something you said was an interesting argument, because you were so interested in Chaqa's scumdar capabilities. But now you are claiming your vote was based on other reasons, which are nowhere described in your iso thus far - other than the end vote, which was presented as secondary to your belief in Chaqa.

Now you also are saying Neph may "very well" be scum. That sounds like hedging, when you also claim you were so confident before re:Neph for reasons other than Chaqa-scumdar, which you say now was only gravy.

So, xorxes, maybe I missed it. Why do you think Nephthys is scum?

I voted for Neph after he had posted twice, I think. And yes, the fact that Chaqa voted for him and I remembered last game when I had a similar reaction to a vote by Chaqa on dargo and we happened to be right made me comment on that fact and gave me a bit of confidence that we might be right again. And no, I don't think any of that is in any way a strong argument to think someone is scum, but it's a perfectly normal reason for a first D1 vote. And I have no idea if Neph is scum or not, he may very well be. And the fact that you don't seem to understand any of that after so many explanations makes me think you are trying very hard to not understand.

This case is not about xorxes making a silly vote. Silly votes are townie. xorxes is scum because he tried to justify his vote, without providing reasons, contradicting himself in the process, and coming circuitously back to his original reasoning, which he himself refuted. There is no reason to do this as town; town are not incentivized to lie or obfuscate their own motives. But xorxes has done exactly that, insisting repeatedly that he had good reasons to vote Nephthys, that were not related to Chaqa; but he himself has never provided them, even after I started tossing him bones.

xorxes is scum.

[foodcoats]

Hi Everybody!

Good town vibes off of kgray, chaqa and rdr.

Xorxes buddying Chaqa seems possible. Also may have tried buddying me.

Would like to see Bozo post some of his own thoughts.

Damo I just...I can see why you get scumread every game.

summit, do you believe that xorxes is scum? You seem to think that xorxes was trying to buddy two players. What do you think of the rest of xorxes' iso?

Do you believe that bozo is scum? Do you believe that rdr, who you townread, is on the right path with his current investigation of bozo?

[Tom Bombadil]

I don't hate your case food.

My issue is " I believe xorxes did not realize that he had such an easy way out of the mess he made for himself because he was too cowed by my inquisition and the fear that comes with being caught D1. "

My experience tells me that xorx is pretty careful as scum and would have come up with the easy way out. Further, with day chat for scum, I would have figured there would have been an effort to push someone else and take the heat of xorx. Considering I'm the one defending xorx the most, and I know I am town, this lack of effort to redirect some heat would mean I would be surprised if xorx was scum. I wouldn't expect scum to openly defend xorx if he were scum, but I would have expected someone to start pushing someone else to take off the heat.

[foodcoats]

I don't hate your case food.

My issue is " I believe xorxes did not realize that he had such an easy way out of the mess he made for himself because he was too cowed by my inquisition and the fear that comes with being caught D1. "

My experience tells me that xorx is pretty careful as scum and would have come up with the easy way out. Further, with day chat for scum, I would have figured there would have been an effort to push someone else and take the heat of xorx. Considering I'm the one defending xorx the most, and I know I am town, this lack of effort to redirect some heat would mean I would be surprised if xorx was scum. I wouldn't expect scum to openly defend xorx if he were scum, but I would have expected someone to start pushing someone else to take off the heat.

This is conspiratorial thinking, which overcomplexifies the game, benefits scum and allows them to slip away. Scum are, generally, survivors, not masterminds.

Also, you are factually incorrect, as rdr is pushing bozo.

[Tom Bombadil]

I do not think I am making it more complex than it needs to be. I think I am making a point that scum tend to be more careful, not less careful - particularly xorxes.

I'd be surprised if rdrivera and xorxes were both scum. rdrivera is pushing bozo, true, but I think at the same time he is pretty openly defending xorx as scumreading bozo mostly for his case on xorx. I don't think rivera would defend a scumbuddy xorx like that.

[Jamiet99uk]

VOTE COUNT 1.6

damo666(2) - worcej, kgray
xorxes(2) - foodcoats, bozotheclown
bozotheclown(2) - damo666, rdrivera2005
worcej(1) - Nephthys*
e.m.c^42(1) - Chaqa
foodcoats(1) - xorxes
summit_fever(1) - Tom Bombadil

NOBODY is set to be lynched.

8 hours and 50 minutes are left in Day One.

EMC and Summit_fever still need to vote.
Summit_fever needs to meet the minimum posting requirement.

[Jamiet99uk]

GM NOTE

When we reach the deadline for this phase, I will process the day and night as two separate results posts, as follows.

First of all, there will be the result of the lynch, as normal. This should be declared just a few minutes after the EoD deadline passes.

Once the lynch result has been declared, the thread will temporarily remain on hold, while I prepare and post the Instant Night PMs to the relevant players, and then post up the Instant Night results flavour in the thread. I anticipate that this will take me around 10 minutes.

Please take note of this and respect the "Please Hold" instruction, when I have given it, until I specifically announce "You May Post" again.

Thank you.

[damo666]

I think food's analysis of Xorxes is genuine and I therefore townread food.

I think Tom's critique of food's analysis sounds as if it is townbased so I am also townreading Tom.

As for Xorxes's actual alignment I'm gonna sit on the fence for the time being.

I still think Bozo is the best lynch today.

All others have gone a bit quiet.

Hello?

[foodcoats]

I think food's analysis of Xorxes is genuine and I therefore townread food.

I think Tom's critique of food's analysis sounds as if it is townbased so I am also townreading Tom.

As for Xorxes's actual alignment I'm gonna sit on the fence for the time being.

I still think Bozo is the best lynch today.

All others have gone a bit quiet.

Hello?

Do you agree with my analysis of xorxes? Do you think xorxes is more likely to be town despite his strange behaviour?

Can you explain your case against bozo? You previously indicated suspicion at his use of quotes without context, but bozo 1) does something strange at the beginning of nearly every game and 2) has now moved onto a pretty standard questioning tack. bozo does not seem out of sorts to me, but perhaps I've missed something.

[worcej]

I think xorxes may be scum here. foodcoats has some good points and xorxes not bothering to get the facts correct about kgray's past games is somewhat suspicious.

##VOTE xorxes

Finally he posted his own words. I feel the xorxes read is kinda forced though... Scum

Saying my read is "forced" is vague. What is your opinion on the exchanges between foodcoats and xorxes? What do you think about xorxes basing a read of kgray partially off his recollection of how kgray plays as scum, when she has never been scum here?

When you use non-strong words like 'may be' and base your read on what someone else has pushed, I think your read is 'forced'. Do you think that is an acceptable interpretation.

In regards to food vs xorxes - my interpretation is food is coming in hot at xorxes and based a lot of his case on the fact that, to him, xorxes his building a case that requires chaqa to be town. Furthermore, 8/10 of food's last posts were directed at xorxes and he built an entire case on him. However... food was pretty nuts on last game with his reads of the scum team, so I do think he makes good reads when the context is available, but for now it seems too forced.

The kgray comment is rather innocent imo - he explicitly said "I think she was scum only once". If he had said "when she was scum...", then that's a slip. I am not in the mood to over-analyze if xorxes is good enough to not slip like this, because I think he is actually kinda meh at scum compared to town, but again this 'slip' is rather weak considering kgray has been in a few games and I agree that the games can blend together, especially as we throw these mini games in.

TL;DR - food has made good reads recently, but his case on xorxes seems too strong for D1 in a mini game imo.

[Chaqa]

I think food's analysis of Xorxes is genuine and I therefore townread food.

I think Tom's critique of food's analysis sounds as if it is townbased so I am also townreading Tom.

As for Xorxes's actual alignment I'm gonna sit on the fence for the time being.

I still think Bozo is the best lynch today.

All others have gone a bit quiet.

Hello?

Everything about this post just makes me double-down on the xorx-damo scum axis.

[foodcoats]

I think food's analysis of Xorxes is genuine and I therefore townread food.

I think Tom's critique of food's analysis sounds as if it is townbased so I am also townreading Tom.

As for Xorxes's actual alignment I'm gonna sit on the fence for the time being.

I still think Bozo is the best lynch today.

All others have gone a bit quiet.

Hello?

Everything about this post just makes me double-down on the xorx-damo scum axis.

If you believe this, why are you voting for neither xorxes nor damo?

[summit_fever]

Hi Everybody!

Good town vibes off of kgray, chaqa and rdr.

Xorxes buddying Chaqa seems possible. Also may have tried buddying me.

Would like to see Bozo post some of his own thoughts.

Damo I just...I can see why you get scumread every game.

summit, do you believe that xorxes is scum? You seem to think that xorxes was trying to buddy two players. What do you think of the rest of xorxes' iso?

Do you believe that bozo is scum? Do you believe that rdr, who you townread, is on the right path with his current investigation of bozo?

Xorxes' iso doesn't read too well. It is defensive and I agree with you that that is unexpected. I can't say I'm convinced he's scum, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Bozo is hunting. Definitely leaning town.

I think Rdrivera is barking up the wrong tree there. He seems to have a dislike of posting quotes from old games which I can understand completely. Not sure I agree with him on targetting town!Xorxes being a good strategy for scum. I've gone more neutral on rdrivera at this point.

[worcej]

Food, I'll reward your excellent reads from last game with this.

##vote xorxes

I stand by my opinion your case is too strong this early. However, the people who have showed up to defend xorxes specifically make it interesting to examine after we see his flip.

[summit_fever]

I think food's analysis of Xorxes is genuine and I therefore townread food.

I think Tom's critique of food's analysis sounds as if it is townbased so I am also townreading Tom.

As for Xorxes's actual alignment I'm gonna sit on the fence for the time being.

I still think Bozo is the best lynch today.

All others have gone a bit quiet.

Hello?

Can you explain why you'd like to lynch Bozo? The walls with no additional commentary? Bozo seems to have stepped up recently.

[kgray]

How are you familiar with Tom's reputation as a good player?

I read somewhere (Discord, I think) that he once faked being a cop with results and got a vig to shoot two scum. Plus worcej called him "leader Tom Bomb" this game.

My concern is that is could have come up in the scum day chat. What kind of Discord are webDip mafia games discussed?

The webDip discord has a channel for forum games. I just checked, worcej posted about it last month so I think that's where I saw it.

[Chaqa]

I think food's analysis of Xorxes is genuine and I therefore townread food.

I think Tom's critique of food's analysis sounds as if it is townbased so I am also townreading Tom.

As for Xorxes's actual alignment I'm gonna sit on the fence for the time being.

I still think Bozo is the best lynch today.

All others have gone a bit quiet.

Hello?

Everything about this post just makes me double-down on the xorx-damo scum axis.

If you believe this, why are you voting for neither xorxes nor damo?

I've been TRYING to pressure EMC to actually vote before the last 5 minutes for a change, but I suppose it's an exercise in insanity at this point.

##Vote damo

[Chaqa]

I want to bring attention to Neph still voting end on worcej too. Seems a bit... low effort?

[foodcoats]

Hi Everybody!

Good town vibes off of kgray, chaqa and rdr.

Xorxes buddying Chaqa seems possible. Also may have tried buddying me.

Would like to see Bozo post some of his own thoughts.

Damo I just...I can see why you get scumread every game.

summit, do you believe that xorxes is scum? You seem to think that xorxes was trying to buddy two players. What do you think of the rest of xorxes' iso?

Do you believe that bozo is scum? Do you believe that rdr, who you townread, is on the right path with his current investigation of bozo?

Xorxes' iso doesn't read too well. It is defensive and I agree with you that that is unexpected. I can't say I'm convinced he's scum, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Bozo is hunting. Definitely leaning town.

I think Rdrivera is barking up the wrong tree there. He seems to have a dislike of posting quotes from old games which I can understand completely. Not sure I agree with him on targetting town!Xorxes being a good strategy for scum. I've gone more neutral on rdrivera at this point.

Thank you, summit.

What are your reads on the other players? Is there anyone who strikes you as particular scummy or townie so far? Who will you vote for?