Celebration of America

[Stressedlines]

after reading what the case was however...wtf ..Child Grooming? making me waste more time this morning, to chase down that part of the story..

OMG, how come these guys were not given life in prison?

[Jamiet99uk]

so, I watched the video TOmmy was being a PITA, and if British law says 'don't do that" then he broke the law, pretty clear

Anyone know what his sentence was? says 13 months after a quick search, is that normal for this type of charge?

He hasn't been sentenced yet. He appealed the original 13 month sentence and due to procedural complaints the courts agreed to a full retrial. He's just been found guilty again, at retrial, and will be sentenced shortly.

[Jamiet99uk]

after reading what the case was however...wtf ..Child Grooming? making me waste more time this morning, to chase down that part of the story..

OMG, how come these guys were not given life in prison?

Yeah it was a horrendous case. As I recall they have all been given long jail terms. Not necessarily life but long sentences. And rightly so.

The issue with Tommy's actions, and the reason what he did was an offence, is because it actually puts the conviction of these horrible child sex offenders in *jeopardy*, becuase their defence lawyers might have sought to claim that Tommy's actions influenced, or sought to influence, the thoughts of the jury.

[Jamiet99uk]

so, let me get this right If I don't support Trump, I am not a conservative? really? its all or nothing huh?

This is a pretty extreme stance from ND. I know from speaking to many people who take conservative, small government, pro enterprise, political stance, that far from all of them support Trump. Likewise I know plenty of conservatives in the UK who are horrified at the idea of Boris Johnson becoming their leader. They're still conservatives, though, for sure.

Trump's gang seem to have created this cult of personality around him, to which ND apparently subscribes. The Making American Great Leader must be worshipped, must not be questioned, must be defended at all costs, and anyone who does not do likewise is an infidel who must be expelled from the conservative movement. They dress themselves in the image of the Great Leader, they hang his portrait of him in their homes, they take any opportunity to show their love for him in public.

It's almost an echo of the cults of personality for Chairman Mao or the leaders of North Korea, who ND is so openly critical of.

Creepy.

[Stressedlines]

Mao was a dbag. Let's be clear he is right up there with stalin and hitler

[Jamiet99uk]

It's also frightening to consider how much Trump has in common with Rev. Jim Jones or David Koresh.

[Stressedlines]

There are a few things I like about trump however I liked some things about Obama also

In general career politicians are gonna suck. Period even if they were pure when entering the upper echelons they cant resist the temptation to feed at the trough once there

[Senlac]

I’ll interject as a Brit, that does wish the USA Happy Birthday (2 days late, apologies). It is a wonderful country in which I had over 12 primarily happy years. Better than some I could mention anyway (including my own).

Trump is a bit scary sometimes, but his presidency is a product of circumstances like all political victories. The alternatives weren’t much better!

I believe the adversarial nature of this discussion is born out of a spectacular inability to agree on what are the nature of today’s problems. Without that fundamental step there can never be consensus on an approach to solving them. Hence we are getting polarisation of political stances in most nations. Democratic, Islamic & probably many other flavours you could identify.

For me I’m scared of the lot of them. The leftist jerks in UK (we have representation on this thread) are simply terrifying. Equally I came across some scary right wing guys during my time in California. Any attempt to mitigate the damage caused by one extreme, is immediately labelled as extreme by the opposing extremists, who cannot abide the slightest criticism of their view.

I ran away to a country where largely sanity prevails (not for the first time & possibly not the last, if I’m unlucky). Costa Rica is as close to a democracy as I’ve experienced (lived in a few that used the name, but didn’t do much of a job at it). The society is remarkable, with excellent levels of education (not talking about high flying Universities, just good common sense education). There is consensus on most important issues, good education for all even the smallest pueblo has a school, lack of violence, crime control, environmental protection, remarkably good healthcare that doesn’t cost a fortune. There are still a few islands of sanity in this world.

I wish the USA all the luck in the world overcoming it’s current divisions in society & 4th of July will hopefully contribute to that reunification process. Nothing like having a bad guy in “Good Old King George” to reunite a nation.
For my homeland UK, they probably need more than luck. Divine intervention would probably not suffice. Meanwhile I’ll hide in Costa Rica, listen to this type of debate with amusement & thank the Good Lord for helping me escape,

Best Regards, your Tico well wisher.

[Fluminator]

Under Obama and any time before I would have joined you in celebrating the Independence Day, but now it is impossible for me to do so. Today you don't have anyone worth calling President. Today you only have a shithead in office, and I am very saddened about this fact.

You realize all the previous presidents were warmongers too right?
Especially Obama

[ND]

If Tommy is a child predator then I hope he gets life or whatever you Brits do. That's sicko stuff.

As for 'Never Trumpers' yeah I don't consider them conservatives. I view them as co-opting the label. People who can't get past Trump's personality and view him for what he is actually doing. They are like the folks who used to run the National Review. Even though everything Trump is doing is defending the Constitution and standing for life, and promoting America they hate him because they don't like his personality. Thus, they aren't conservatives because instead of supporting his policies they hate him and his policies because they hate Trump even though everything he is doing is everything they could have ever wanted and more. I don't consider that an extreme position at all. Look at people like Glenn Beck who was a Never Trumper but came around and now openly wears a MAGA hat and supports Trump. He got past Trump's personality and views mostly everything Trump does now in a positive or conservative light. Glenn is a good man because he didn't let personality stand in the way.

I don't think there is a cult of personality around Trump at all. I'll criticize him when he does stuff I dislike, but so far he has done very few things I dislike. I guess the big example of something he did I dislike is bombing Syria.

[Randomizer]

" Even though everything Trump is doing is defending the Constitution and standing for life, and promoting America they hate him because they don't like his personality."

Trump's violations of the US Constitution:

Emolument Clause in personally profiting while in office and receiving payments from foreign governments.
https://prospect.org/article/emoluments ... s-downfall

Considering staying in office past the Constitutional term limits even as a joke.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/18/politics ... index.html

Trump's violating the Congressional authority to decide spending by shuffling money for his wall from where it was appropriated.

Trump's blanket ordering the Executive branch members not to comply with Congressional requests for information that are required by law.

Trump's undermining of the Judiciary by making personal attacks on judges hearing cases he is involved in from Trump U and onward.

Trump's removing of prosecutors involved in investigations of him and his companies. This is besides the 11 obstruction of justice instances mentioned in the Mueller report.

Trump' standing for life if they aren't whites has been all the deaths in his border concentration camps where they are being treated worse than prisoners of war. People are being held weeks past the time federal rules say they can be held without being transferred to other facilities or released.

Trump has said they are free to leave if they post huge bonds or are old enough to understand their rights.

Let's not forget when Trump campaigned he criticized Obama about Christians from Arab countries. Then when elected he started deporting them even if they were at risk for being killed for helping US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Jamiet99uk]

No ND Tommy isn't a child predator as far as I know. My point was that his interference in the trial of a group of Muslim men accused of child grooming, becuase he hates Muslims, perversely had the effect of risking the collapse of their trial, risking them avoiding jail because of Tommy's illegal publicity stunt.

[ND]

@Randomizer: I appreciate the post. Please send me links or news articles about how Trump is being indicted on all of those counts for violating the constitution. I get it, he has done a few things I dislike (and no I don't agree with everything on your list). But, show me the indictments. IF you are saying that he is violating the Constitution then you need to show me where he is being indicted or investigated for those counts.

@Jamiet99uk: I see.

[Jamiet99uk]

@ND could you please justify US concentration camps where toddlers are being kept in cages without basic healthcare?

You love protecting babies. God said so, right?

Where in the bible does God make American babies more special??

[Randomizer]

@ND - Presidents can't be indicted in federal court for violating the constitution. He can only be impeached while in office. However the US attorney's office in the Southern District of New York is investigating for trials when he leaves office and no longer has presidential immunity. Now state courts are different as President Clinton found out with the Paula Jones trial and Trump has been fighting to delay or have those dropped.

Bank Fraud:

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-2 ... on-1349868

Obstruction of Justice:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... use-227050

Other cases including campaign finance violations, foreign money influence for favors, insurance fraud, charity fraud, tax fraud, ….

https://time.com/5557644/donald-trump-o ... s-mueller/

[Stressedlines]

this is what I hate about this place, everything, even a Celebration of America (which is a lot more than the current occupant of the WH) turns into a tide of half-truths from both sides.

You guys cant even stick to the damn topic

[ND]

@ND could you please justify US concentration camps where toddlers are being kept in cages without basic healthcare?

You love protecting babies. God said so, right?

Where in the bible does God make American babies more special??

What concentration camps? Obama started a series of processing camps on the southern border and Trump has continued the policy. Illegal aliens who break are laws are detained there and then deported or given a hearing for refugee status. There are no concentration camps that is a perverted and sick thing to say to compare processing centers to places where millions died in the Holocaust. What kind of sick perverted freak are you?

[Randomizer]

Processing centers under Obama and US laws and regulations have time limits for adults and minors before they have to be released or moved to more permanent facilities. The term concentration camp is applicable because it describes what is happening. They weren't initially death camps in the first years leading up to the Holocaust since it was possible for the early prisoners to be bought for money out of them like the current US camps.

According to governmental reports by investigators Trump's Border Patrol is in violation of a court case he lost, the Flores court settlement, for exceeding the 3 day limit for minors:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dhs-inspec ... n-centers/

This is while existing facilities are under used.

This isn't the first time the US has done this for political reasons with the Japanese internment camps of WW II. Other Western countries have done the same under other names to "control" immigration from the British imprisonment of German nationals fleeing Nazi Germany to the displacement camps after WW II.

[ND]

Processing centers under Obama and US laws and regulations have time limits for adults and minors before they have to be released or moved to more permanent facilities. The term concentration camp is applicable because it describes what is happening. They weren't initially death camps in the first years leading up to the Holocaust since it was possible for the early prisoners to be bought for money out of them like the current US camps.

According to governmental reports by investigators Trump's Border Patrol is in violation of a court case he lost, the Flores court settlement, for exceeding the 3 day limit for minors:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dhs-inspec ... n-centers/

This is while existing facilities are under used.

This isn't the first time the US has done this for political reasons with the Japanese internment camps of WW II. Other Western countries have done the same under other names to "control" immigration from the British imprisonment of German nationals fleeing Nazi Germany to the displacement camps after WW II.

No, your sick if you believe the government is putting people in a camp. A total sicko

[Jamiet99uk]

Processing centers under Obama and US laws and regulations have time limits for adults and minors before they have to be released or moved to more permanent facilities. The term concentration camp is applicable because it describes what is happening. They weren't initially death camps in the first years leading up to the Holocaust since it was possible for the early prisoners to be bought for money out of them like the current US camps.

According to governmental reports by investigators Trump's Border Patrol is in violation of a court case he lost, the Flores court settlement, for exceeding the 3 day limit for minors:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dhs-inspec ... n-centers/

This is while existing facilities are under used.

This isn't the first time the US has done this for political reasons with the Japanese internment camps of WW II. Other Western countries have done the same under other names to "control" immigration from the British imprisonment of German nationals fleeing Nazi Germany to the displacement camps after WW II.

No, your sick if you believe the government is putting people in a camp. A total sicko

That's exactly what they are doing. It is documented, verifiable fact. You're in denial.