War, what is it good for?

[Jamiet99uk]

War is ignorant and stupid. Those who wage it rarely have the people's interests at heart.

[CaptainFritz28]

I heartily agree.

[Jamiet99uk]

Senior UN officials say there is evidence that Israel is using famine and starvation as a weapon of war - a clear war crime.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68679482

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Totally agree that Israel blocking humanitarian aid for Gaza is criminal. Israel's realistic concern that aid flows will be abused by Hamas is, at this point, totally outweighed by the gravity of the humanitarian crisis. It's embarrassing that the US has resorted to dropping aid out of airplanes.

I've been a reluctant Ronald about applying the word "genocide" to this war, but if Israel creates a massive man-made famine when the aid is just sitting on the other side of the border there won't be any excuses left. War crimes like this aren't even plausibly contributing to Israel's stated goal of eliminating Hamas; in fact, they're almost certainly counter productive to that goal.

I've been thinking about the parallel to Japan in WW2. Japan was so obstinate in the face of certain defeat that the US resorted to fire bombing, and ultimately nuking, civilian centers to force their hand. It wasn't the only option to achieve a US victory - the US would have certainly defeated Japan even without resorting to these tactics - but the alternative was killing many thousands more US conscripts and prolonging the war. It's extremely sad to see that war in the 21st century is no more civilized than it was in the 20th century.

[CaptainFritz28]

I agree, but I'm surprised that you are shocked to see that war in the 21st century is just as uncivilized as in any other time. War will always be uncivilized; there is no civilized way to go about killing people on a massive scale. Humanity has not progressed, we've just found different ways to do the same thing and call those new ways "civil."

Also, I'm in agreement with Jamie that it's a war crime, as I have concurred previously.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I agree, but I'm surprised that you are shocked to see that war in the 21st century is just as uncivilized as in any other time. War will always be uncivilized; there is no civilized way to go about killing people on a massive scale. Humanity has not progressed, we've just found different ways to do the same thing and call those new ways "civil."

Also, I'm in agreement with Jamie that it's a war crime, as I have concurred previously.

I think there were good reasons to believe the world really was improving along this axis.

We've never had a period without war crimes, but we really did see improvements to war-related humanitarian efforts, peacekeeping, etc., following WW2. NATO really does restrain its tactics and heavily invest in better targeted weapons. Obviously NATO's conduct is far from perfect, but it is an historical miracle that the world's preeminent military force even tries.

I'm certainly not resigned to the idea that war will always be maximally bad. We really could have had a functioning ICJ if there were political will. We really could have a broader and more consistent regime of sanctions against human-rights abusing nations. Wars really can be conducted in a manner that limits civilian casualties and hardship.

I don't think that we're unable to make progress on these issues, so it remains disheartening to see what looks like backsliding.

[learnedSloth]

I agree, but I'm surprised that you are shocked to see that war in the 21st century is just as uncivilized as in any other time. War will always be uncivilized; there is no civilized way to go about killing people on a massive scale. Humanity has not progressed, we've just found different ways to do the same thing and call those new ways "civil."

Also, I'm in agreement with Jamie that it's a war crime, as I have concurred previously.

I think there were good reasons to believe the world really was improving along this axis.

We've never had a period without war crimes, but we really did see improvements to war-related humanitarian efforts, peacekeeping, etc., following WW2. NATO really does restrain its tactics and heavily invest in better targeted weapons. Obviously NATO's conduct is far from perfect, but it is an historical miracle that the world's preeminent military force even tries.

I'm certainly not resigned to the idea that war will always be maximally bad. We really could have had a functioning ICJ if there were political will. We really could have a broader and more consistent regime of sanctions against human-rights abusing nations. Wars really can be conducted in a manner that limits civilian casualties and hardship.

I don't think that we're unable to make progress on these issues, so it remains disheartening to see what looks like backsliding.

I have a theory. Mike Wallace interviewed Yehiel De-Nur, who had collapsed during his testimony at the Eichmann trial. He said that he saw that Eichmann was just an ordinary man and added: "I was afraid about myself. I saw that I am capable to do this. I am exactly like he."

I think that after WW2 many saw that they had the same capacity and turned to God for help.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Uh oh, Sloth found another thread that was momentarily not about the Bible. Good thing he fixed it or we might accidentally discuss something else.

Might I add that, before and during WW2 many Nazis turned to that same God for help and guidance :)

[CaptainFritz28]

Might I add that, before and during WW2 many Nazis turned to that same God for help and guidance :)

Are you referring to the "German Christians," The "church" of Germany run by the state, under direct control of the Nazi party, which imprisoned any pastor who refused to agree to every whim of the party?

It'd be like Trump starting his own "christian" denomination full of heresies, getting into office, and then mandating that all Christians become part of his "church" or else they get imprisoned. It would be pretty obvious that he didn't actually believe it, but that he was using it to gain control over Christians.

People like Dietrich Bonhoeffer (who I've mentioned before here) opposed the new "church" and denounced it for what it was - an attempt by the state to control religion and destroy the system of Christian beliefs which might threaten their rule.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Germany was nearly 100% Christian before and during the war. 1/3rd Catholic, 2/3rds Protestant.

No doubt many German Christians had reservations about Nazism. Obviously many were enthusiastic about it too. Widespread Christian belief was, at a minimum, not a prophylactic against totalitarianism and genocide in Germany.

Sloth's point, that folks saw the evil done by Nazi Germany and turned to God (presumably the Christian God, given Sloth's interests) for help is interesting in this context, as they were turning to the same God that the vast majority of Nazis earnestly believed in.

Hopefully those turning to God after witnessing this level of human evil also had some hard questions about why Church and faith hadn't prevented such evil.

[CaptainFritz28]

Certainly, I agree with that. The Church in Germany acted extremely cowardly in the face of Naziism, and should be criticized for it. Hence why I mentioned Bonhoeffer, one of the few calling Christians to wake up and realize that the "christianity" which the Nazis promoted was nothing more than a state controlled religion which didn't care so much about God as it did about control.

Any time the state controls a religion, or a religion controls the state, bad things happen. That doesn't mean the principles of a certain religion can't guide the state's actions, but when the state mandates things about how people "should" act religiously, you get into heaps of trouble.

[Jamiet99uk]

Certainly, I agree with that. The Church in Germany acted extremely cowardly in the face of Naziism, and should be criticized for it. Hence why I mentioned Bonhoeffer, one of the few calling Christians to wake up and realize that the "christianity" which the Nazis promoted was nothing more than a state controlled religion which didn't care so much about God as it did about control.

Any time the state controls a religion, or a religion controls the state, bad things happen. That doesn't mean the principles of a certain religion can't guide the state's actions, but when the state mandates things about how people "should" act religiously, you get into heaps of trouble.

You're in favour of a clear and strong separation between and state?

Glad to know that.

[CaptainFritz28]

Yes, of course. That doesn't mean religion has nothing to do with politics, but it does mean that the state shouldn't restrict religious worship, and that the Church should not be an institution with legislative, judicial, or executive government power.

[learnedSloth]

Germany was nearly 100% Christian before and during the war. 1/3rd Catholic, 2/3rds Protestant.

No doubt many German Christians had reservations about Nazism. Obviously many were enthusiastic about it too. Widespread Christian belief was, at a minimum, not a prophylactic against totalitarianism and genocide in Germany.

Sloth's point, that folks saw the evil done by Nazi Germany and turned to God (presumably the Christian God, given Sloth's interests) for help is interesting in this context, as they were turning to the same God that the vast majority of Nazis earnestly believed in.

Hopefully those turning to God after witnessing this level of human evil also had some hard questions about why Church and faith hadn't prevented such evil.

21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Matthew 7)

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Yup Sloth, that's a quote from the same Bible that most Nazis earnestly believed in. No doubt they thought this section was talking about someone else.

Of course, that's the core of the problem isn't it? Every Christian is a real Christian in their own mind and this pedestal allows them to denigrate and disregard any other self-described "Christians" with whom they disagree. And since it's all interpretation upon interpretation of a set of contradictory stories and traditions, with no communicative/living God to clarify who has the right answer, how're we going to know who the real Christians are?

[learnedSloth]

Yup Sloth, that's a quote from the same Bible that most Nazis earnestly believed in. No doubt they thought this section was talking about someone else.

Of course, that's the core of the problem isn't it? Every Christian is a real Christian in their own mind and this pedestal allows them to denigrate and disregard any other self-described "Christians" with whom they disagree. And since it's all interpretation upon interpretation of a set of contradictory stories and traditions, with no communicative/living God to clarify who has the right answer, how're we going to know who the real Christians are?

The parable of the tares of the field indicates that it is difficult even to the angels of God, even if false negatives are the particular concern in it. On the other hand the doctrine can be scrutinized like any worldview.

[Jamiet99uk]

Fuck god.
Fuck jesus.

I just want it to be a matter of record that Israel has committed war crimes. Israel is a fascist, nationalist state. They are deliberately conducting an act on sustained genocide against the Palestinian people. Thank you.

[CaptainFritz28]

I find it curious that Jamie thinks we should actually consider his opinions with any regard or respect when it's clear that he doesn't regard or respect anyone else's.

[orathaic]

If you want to talk about the bible then create a thread about it.

If you want to talk about the one state which is controlled by right wing, some would say extremists, adherents of the Jewish faith, using their past to justify committing genocidal acts against an oppressed population. Then by all means this is the thread to do it in.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

If you want to talk about the bible then create a thread about it.

If you want to talk about the one state which is controlled by right wing, some would say extremists, adherents of the Jewish faith, using their past to justify committing genocidal acts against an oppressed population. Then by all means this is the thread to do it in.

I basically agree that Israel's is committing a genocide, but these cartoonishly one-sided arguments hurt your position more than they help.

The ultra-orthodox matter in Israel, but it beggars belief to think that Jewish fundamentalism is the driving force of this conflict when Israel's religious intensity is about on par with Canada's: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/06/13/how-religious-commitment-varies-by-country-among-people-of-all-ages/
An honest argument would have to contend with the real reasons why Israelis are so willing to fear and despise their neighbours. Religious animosity, Israeli chauvinism, and racism are only one small facet of this. Genuine security concerns are the much bigger animating issue and they aren't so easily dismissed. The West killed many civilians in Mosul after comparatively less serious terror attacks by ISIS, because living in fear of terror attacks is intolerable for any nation.

You can find foot-in-mouth videos online where some Jews try to use the specter of the holocaust to absolve Israel of any criticism. But you're absolutely living in a bubble if you think this is a mainstream justification for the war today. Genocidal or not, Israel's war today is obviously being justified primarily on the basis of (i) the extraordinarily shocking cruelty of the terror attacks against Israel's last October, (ii) the ongoing plight of hostages that Hamas will not release, and (iii) Hamas' own stated position that it will use any break in hostilities not to improve the lives of Palestinians, but to plot further acts of terror against Israelis.

If you want to end Israeli genocide you'll need to contend with the facts. It's largely about security and the reciprocated genocidal intentions of Israel's neighbours. There is no solution to this crisis that undoes the Nakba. There is no way to undo the modern state of Israel without a genocide against those living there.