Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

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jmo1121109
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#41 Post by jmo1121109 » Mon May 06, 2019 1:55 am

FlaviusAetius wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:45 pm
Squigs44 wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:43 pm
I think he is saying that he is only going to join spots that are vacated by someone who has CD'd. Yes, this is a good way to get points. No, this is not something most people enjoy. If that is the strategy you want, go for it.
I mean in one of my games, there was no penalty, the country wasn't even doing THAT bad, thats my issue.
When I joined games, it was like I had to climb a mountain restore things, it was fun.
Now I can't do that, and I feel like there's going to be a lot of games more than before that you can join to get easy stuff
Uhh this is the exact problem I was trying to fix so sorry you don't like it I guess but I'm happy with it. The entire point of removing NMR's is preventing games from getting ruined by several turns of a country not putting in orders to make the positions more appealing to take over. So it sounds like mission accomplished!

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#42 Post by jmo1121109 » Mon May 06, 2019 1:56 am

FlaviusAetius wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:46 pm
I know one dude in of my games said to join a game you use to have to pay half the DC, it would raise the pot, and give them stake in the game, I think we could do something like that idk
No. That would negate the entire purpose of what I changed.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#43 Post by jmo1121109 » Mon May 06, 2019 1:57 am

cdazz30 wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 11:22 pm
Great work on this, but I think the only downfall is players who know they will be eliminated at various stages of the game can just not enter orders and delay the game for everyone else.

Any thoughts or discussions on how to prevent this from happening? Maybe remove the excused miss for anyone with fewer than the starting number of supply centers they began the game with?
Their RR is going to drop by using excused NMR's so you can just make RR 90+ games and they won't be able to join your games or anyone else's. In fact right now any excused NMR will probably be a massive drop to RR between 5-100% depending on how many turns they've played in the last 24 hours.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#44 Post by jmo1121109 » Mon May 06, 2019 2:00 am

90kicvesb wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 12:22 am
I was part of today's live game which was delayed 9 times for excused missed turns. It was frustrating, but without the new system, the game would most likely have been drawn/canceled very early and that's even less fun. Once some time passes and people's RRs become meaningful, the update should be a clearer improvement.
Of the people who went into "left" status in this game. Their RR's are now:
64%, 62%, 87%, and 80%. So by being a jackass in 1 game they're no longer able to join any games made with a 90% RR. Seems to be working pretty well.

And FlaviusAetius had to use 1 and his RR is down to 83%. He'll have the chance to work it back up but if he doesn't he won't be able to join good RR live games anymore.
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#45 Post by Peregrine Falcon » Mon May 06, 2019 5:51 am

jmo1121109 wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:57 am
cdazz30 wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 11:22 pm
Great work on this, but I think the only downfall is players who know they will be eliminated at various stages of the game can just not enter orders and delay the game for everyone else.

Any thoughts or discussions on how to prevent this from happening? Maybe remove the excused miss for anyone with fewer than the starting number of supply centers they began the game with?
Their RR is going to drop by using excused NMR's so you can just make RR 90+ games and they won't be able to join your games or anyone else's. In fact right now any excused NMR will probably be a massive drop to RR between 5-100% depending on how many turns they've played in the last 24 hours.
Just to clarify, since the OP implies differently, do 'excused' NMRs decrease a player's RR? If not, why not, since they clearly negatively impact the game as well, by delaying it and extending the phase for more/new press.

On a different note, I'm curious why you all chose to make RR calculated solely based on the last year. In past discussions when a system like this has been suggested, it has often been brought up that people who simply stop playing for a while, or play less often would have their RR forgiven simply by waiting, without earning it. Once upon a time it was suggested this be solved by something like calculating a player's RR based on either their past year of turns, or turns in their past 20 games, whichever is greater. Is there a reason this system was not implemented?

Also, is there any plan of separating live and non-live RRs? I know that has long been discussed as a way of improving RR, so I was wondering if you might touch on the state of that idea?

I know you guys have spent a lot of time on this issue, and all your work is greatly appreciated. All the code development over the past while is incredible.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#46 Post by TrPrado » Mon May 06, 2019 6:32 am

The formula for the base percentage is 100 * (1 - (missed turns / total turns)). Missing a turn that’s an unexcused delay results in an extra penalty to RR by a decent percentage.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#47 Post by I_Nod_Well » Mon May 06, 2019 10:55 pm

How many excused turns does a player who takes over a CD get?
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#48 Post by jmo1121109 » Mon May 06, 2019 11:30 pm

None
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#49 Post by teacon7 » Tue May 07, 2019 2:41 am

Thank you guys so much for all the hard work coding this. I really appreciate having a quality site like this.

...how hard would it be to code a "subs" list for any given game? I.e., if/when a player drops out, the top player on the "substitute list" either a) is auto-subbed in, or b) gets a notification that they have X time in which to accept or pass on their "first dibs" slot as a sub.

That might mess things up too much. I don't know the math - I don't play this game enough because I don't know how (I need a SoW or a tutor!). But at least if a player drops due to CD, the spectators could get a notice. Thoughts?
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#50 Post by ziran » Tue May 07, 2019 5:52 am

Damn now my previous 100% rr is worthless.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#51 Post by TrPrado » Tue May 07, 2019 5:55 am

Meanwhile I’ve finally managed to bridge the gap from 99% to 100%
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#52 Post by Peregrine Falcon » Thu May 09, 2019 7:22 am

Peregrine Falcon wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 5:51 am
jmo1121109 wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:57 am
cdazz30 wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 11:22 pm
Great work on this, but I think the only downfall is players who know they will be eliminated at various stages of the game can just not enter orders and delay the game for everyone else.

Any thoughts or discussions on how to prevent this from happening? Maybe remove the excused miss for anyone with fewer than the starting number of supply centers they began the game with?
Their RR is going to drop by using excused NMR's so you can just make RR 90+ games and they won't be able to join your games or anyone else's. In fact right now any excused NMR will probably be a massive drop to RR between 5-100% depending on how many turns they've played in the last 24 hours.
Just to clarify, since the OP implies differently, do 'excused' NMRs decrease a player's RR? If not, why not, since they clearly negatively impact the game as well, by delaying it and extending the phase for more/new press.

On a different note, I'm curious why you all chose to make RR calculated solely based on the last year. In past discussions when a system like this has been suggested, it has often been brought up that people who simply stop playing for a while, or play less often would have their RR forgiven simply by waiting, without earning it. Once upon a time it was suggested this be solved by something like calculating a player's RR based on either their past year of turns, or turns in their past 20 games, whichever is greater. Is there a reason this system was not implemented?

Also, is there any plan of separating live and non-live RRs? I know that has long been discussed as a way of improving RR, so I was wondering if you might touch on the state of that idea?

I know you guys have spent a lot of time on this issue, and all your work is greatly appreciated. All the code development over the past while is incredible.
Reposting for an answer?

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#53 Post by FlaviusAetius » Thu May 09, 2019 3:41 pm

:cry:
I've played a few live games, in two of them, I forgot to make a move, and had to use my excused misturn.
I feel this is what should happen;
If you miss a turn, your RR isn't affected, if you miss it again, your RR IS affected.
At least do that for live games...

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#54 Post by Claesar » Thu May 09, 2019 3:44 pm

FlaviusAetius wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 3:41 pm
:cry:
I've played a few live games, in two of them, I forgot to make a move, and had to use my excused misturn.
I feel this is what should happen;
If you miss a turn, your RR isn't affected, if you miss it again, your RR IS affected.
At least do that for live games...
That's exactly what happens. If you look at your RR explained, you can see you missed multiple turns:
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/profile.php ... erID=98845

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#55 Post by jmo1121109 » Thu May 09, 2019 4:19 pm

Claesar wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 3:44 pm
FlaviusAetius wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 3:41 pm
:cry:
I've played a few live games, in two of them, I forgot to make a move, and had to use my excused misturn.
I feel this is what should happen;
If you miss a turn, your RR isn't affected, if you miss it again, your RR IS affected.
At least do that for live games...
That's exactly what happens. If you look at your RR explained, you can see you missed multiple turns:
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/profile.php ... erID=98845
Not quite. All the missed turns impact the "Base percentage" part of your RR seen on that page. The same period excused only applies to the additional penalties for non-excused missed turns.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#56 Post by TrPrado » Thu May 09, 2019 5:31 pm

Excused delays are easier to earn back RR from. Just enter orders for more and more turns.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#57 Post by Squigs44 » Thu May 09, 2019 9:48 pm

FlaviusAetius wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 3:41 pm
:cry:
I've played a few live games, in two of them, I forgot to make a move, and had to use my excused misturn.
I feel this is what should happen;
If you miss a turn, your RR isn't affected, if you miss it again, your RR IS affected.
At least do that for live games...
RR measures your reliability. If you miss a turn, even if it is excused, you are still showing you are less reliable. I think it's doing its job.
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#58 Post by FlaviusAetius » Fri May 10, 2019 12:03 am

I still think there should be some sort of mercy, this system seemed like it was going to do just that :/

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#59 Post by Squigs44 » Fri May 10, 2019 1:20 am

FlaviusAetius wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:03 am
I still think there should be some sort of mercy, this system seemed like it was going to do just that :/
The purpose of the change was to improve how webdip handles NMRs and CDs, not to make it more merciful. The main way it does this is through its extensions, so that there are less turns that process with countries holding everywhere. The term excused in this system is not denoting forgiveness for missing a turn, but what is excused before it puts you in civil disorder.
A system that is too merciful defeats the whole purpose of the rating. If it was easy to get a 90% RR, then a game with a 90% RR requirement is pointless, and the rating doesn't do its job. The goal here is to make an accurate and useful indicator of how often a player misses their turns, so that players who want to play a game with little to no disruption may do so.
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#60 Post by jmo1121109 » Fri May 10, 2019 1:57 am

The mercy of this system is that the RR hit doesn't haunt you forever. If you start becoming more reliable your rating goes up. And a year later is perfect again. If you get an unexcused one it's really bad for a month and then improves some. This is not designed to let people miss turns. If you're missing turns you're negatively impacting games, and lessening the experience of every other player on the site. So I absolutely want to punish that. Severely for the few people who had hundreds and the 1 or 2 who had thousands of NMR's.
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