wD Mafia Master Post

[Jamiet99uk]

For the record, I firmly believe that I have not violated the webDip site rule about "cheating accusations" in any post that I have ever made inside the "Forum Games" area of the forum.

I am perfectly prepared to address this with the Mods if they contact me in response to Brainbomb's formal complaint.

[Foxcastle]

Or we could go with the second half of my point about GMs having the power to make changes and worcej could just add a rule:

Players are expected to treat each other with respect and refrain from personal attacks. Players who would like to raise an issue about personal attacks (either targeted at them or at another player) should contact the GM directly. The GM will, at a minimum, contact the player to let them know an issue has been raised about them. The GM has discretion to issue specific or general warnings to players in the thread or by PM, to remove or modkill players for personal attacks (even if no warning has been issued), or take whatever other actions they deem necessary to address the issue.

Whaddya say, worcej?

This wording is rather broad. I am concerned that it is open to abuse.

Again, we do not have a robust criminal justice system here that will require GMs to Initiate Formal Proceedings™ and subject themselves to judicial review pending three levels of appeal and a final writ of mandamus from the site owners. We have GMs who make calls. As with everything, the GMs can use their common sense to use this to the benefit of the game and players, and if they think someone is abusing it, they can revert to Rule 0 to tell that player to knock it off.

[Jamiet99uk]

Or we could go with the second half of my point about GMs having the power to make changes and worcej could just add a rule:

Players are expected to treat each other with respect and refrain from personal attacks. Players who would like to raise an issue about personal attacks (either targeted at them or at another player) should contact the GM directly. The GM will, at a minimum, contact the player to let them know an issue has been raised about them. The GM has discretion to issue specific or general warnings to players in the thread or by PM, to remove or modkill players for personal attacks (even if no warning has been issued), or take whatever other actions they deem necessary to address the issue.

Whaddya say, worcej?

This wording is rather broad. I am concerned that it is open to abuse.

Again, we do not have a robust criminal justice system here that will require GMs to Initiate Formal Proceedings™ and subject themselves to judicial review pending three levels of appeal and a final writ of mandamus from the site owners. We have GMs who make calls. As with everything, the GMs can use their common sense to use this to the benefit of the game and players, and if they think someone is abusing it, they can revert to Rule 0 to tell that player to knock it off.

Well unfortunately it appears that Brainbomb firmly disagrees with you and believes that the Mods must now adjudicate complaints about conduct in Mafia games.

I do not think the Mods will agree.

Sigh.

[Foxcastle]

So far the views expressed would appear to be as follows:

Adopt a Code of Conduct (2) - Foodcoats, Damo666

Introduce a "good conduct" Rule instead (1) - Foxcastle

I am currently withholding my view while the discussion continues (but I firmly support the discussion taking place

I can't help but chuckle at this. And I mean that as meta-commentary, and not unkindly, I find it genuinely kinda funny, given that you are (partly) the impetus for the discussion and that I'm sure a lot of people expect you be one of the first players who will come under its action. And here you are, all high-minded and restrained, like a chicken helping the chef decide what to serve for dinner when the special of the day is coq au vin

[brainbomb]

Site rule 6 on webdip is not specified as a rule about cheating wrt diplomacy. its a rule that cheating accusations of any kind should not be on the forum

[brainbomb]

Well that was a great many different kinds of stupidity.

RIP Damo.

I want to check who manipulated all that. Sadly it was partly Brainbomb I think.

Speaking of Brainbomb WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU DO THAT FOR YOU IDIOT? He was the real Vig, still had a shot left, and unvoted at the wire to get himself modkilled?

That has really not helped us. Town is about to lose.

Brainbomb should be banned from at least the next game for that shit. That's game throwing, playing against win con

sure looks like a cheating accusation to me

you accused me of gamethrowing and advocated my ban

[Jamiet99uk]

Brainbomb, please stop this.

If you think I have broken site rules, please email the mods.

[Jamiet99uk]

So far the views expressed would appear to be as follows:

Adopt a Code of Conduct (2) - Foodcoats, Damo666

Introduce a "good conduct" Rule instead (1) - Foxcastle

I am currently withholding my view while the discussion continues (but I firmly support the discussion taking place

I can't help but chuckle at this. And I mean that as meta-commentary, and not unkindly, I find it genuinely kinda funny, given that you are (partly) the impetus for the discussion and that I'm sure a lot of people expect you be one of the first players who will come under its action. And here you are, all high-minded and restrained, like a chicken helping the chef decide what to serve for dinner when the special of the day is coq au vin

I don't find your chuckle unkind. However, first of all, if a Code of Conduct is adopted, or if a rule is adopted seeking to remove insults, swearing, blasphemy, or anything else from the game, then I shall abide by it.

Being quite frank, as a player my personal view quite honestly is that some people should grow a pair, and some of the things that I have said which have been labelled "toxic" or "insulting" are just my kind of humour, which can be a little savage, but you should hear some of the things my friends and I say to each other in the pub. This isn't nursery school and sometimes the extent to which people cry for their mommy in the middle of a Mafia game makes me roll my eyes.

Second of all, I am also coming at this from the perspective of a GM, which is an area where you'd have to accept, whether you like me personally or not, I have a great deal of experience in. As a GM, on consideration, I actually have slight reservations about your proposal. Not particularly in terms of games that I will GM, but considering other GMs.

You see, asking players to contact the GM directly, and asking the GM to be the arbiter of complaints about insults and conduct, is placing an additional duty on the GM which I feel some GMs will struggle with. Some of the GMs on this site are very attentive, they divide game time carefully with their co-GM so that a GM is regularly "on duty", they post a vote count every couple of hours and ensure GM calls are given prompt attention. But some GMs, not naming anyone in particular, do not give that level of time to the game once it is running. Since the introduction of the Peterbot, some GMs don't post vote counts at all (which I am not a fan of) and the game can at times go up to 24 hours without GM attention.

Now, if someone is being "insulting" or using swear words or taking God's name in vain, or whatever, in the game thread, and this under your proposal is something they should PM the GM about, well then? Can we be confident that all of our GM's are going to be ready, willing, and able to take swift action in every case, and do so to a standard that satisfies the community's thirst for enforced niceness? I think this is a reasonable question to ask.

[brainbomb]

Brainbomb, please stop this.

If you think I have broken site rules, please email the mods.

but you just said the mods shouldnt be involved in forum games

[brainbomb]

PROPOSAL 1.0

The mafia games on the webdiplomacy forum should henceforth follow rule 6 of webdiplomacys rules for the forum.

The following types of statements would be deemed illegal.

□gamethrowing accusations
□cheating accusations
□efforts to claim a player should be banned
□direct misuse of the mafia rulebook to circumvent site rules: flaming, bigotry, sexist remarks, ageist remarks, comments attacking a persons mental faculties.

[Jamiet99uk]

Brainbomb, please stop this.

If you think I have broken site rules, please email the mods.

but you just said the mods shouldnt be involved in forum games

And you claim to think they should.

If that is genuinely what you think, take your complaint to them and stop spamming this thread with personal attacks against me.

[Jamiet99uk]

I have now placed Brainbomb on my "ignore" list and will not respond to him further in this thread.

If he thinks I have violated site rules he should raise a formal complaint, or never mention it again.

[brainbomb]

ill now sign up for ongoing game just so youre forced to unignore me

[Foxcastle]

1) If the GMs cannot handle players contacting them with complaints about other players, and if the GMs cannot look at those complaints and sort out when to ask someone to play nice and when to tell someone that their complaint has been heard but it doesn't rise to the level of action, then they shouldn't be GM'ing. It's not about time management or rapid response, it's about willingness to do something when a player asks, and it's about creating accountability for players who devolve into personal attacks.

2) Do you speak to your boss and coworkers like you speak to your pub friends? Do you speak to shop owners and service people like you speak to your pub friends? How about to other players in face-to-face diplomacy games or other social settings with a mix of acquaintances and people you don't know?

If you can't be respectful of other people who are not your fellow hooligans, in an environment where anonymity increases vitriol and text-based communication increases misunderstanding, then at some point the mods are going to decide we are more trouble than we're worth and hide the entire Forum Games section, and the mafia community here will just quietly die out.

Which seems to be what Brainbomb is going for by threatening to contact the mods. But whether it's him today or someone else in the future (and god forbid that some player feels sexually harassed, because that kind of complaint to the mods could get us scrubbed from the forum entirely), we're playing with fire by not having some, any, indication that as a community we are able to play nice.

[Fluminator]

I leave one game and the community goes down the crapper?
This is what happens without my guidance.

[brainbomb]

ive been complaining about how people keep calling for players to quit and be bamned over minutae for 9 games now. no governing body has reacted
nothings been done

I havent reported jamie for a reason

[brainbomb]

you people seem to like jamie even if he cant follow site rule 6

[Foxcastle]

ive been complaining about how people keep calling for players to quit and be bamned over minutae for 9 games now. no governing body has reacted
nothings been done

I havent reported jamie for a reason

Have you contacted the recently re-formed Mafia Council directly with your complaints?

[brainbomb]

ive been complaining about how people keep calling for players to quit and be bamned over minutae for 9 games now. no governing body has reacted
nothings been done

I havent reported jamie for a reason

Have you contacted the recently re-formed Mafia Council directly with your complaints?

ive still never heard back on if my m57 game was greenlighted. nobody even bothered to answer so I withdrew. this council is nonpresent. hands off.

the problem with all this is the non comittal - make it up as we go- attitude. jamie wouldve been perm banned on mu ages ago

[brainbomb]

if you deadpost once its a BAN
if you fuck up an ongoing game its a BAN
if you flame people its a BAN
if you use ogi and make cheating accusations its a BAN