Turkey is Overrated

[Chaqa]

This may be a bit of a divisive topic, but I'm of the strong opinion that Turkey is quite overrated. Many players rank it as #2 behind France, but I would disagree. I think it is solidly middle of the pack. Above Russia or Austria, especially in Gunboat for Russia, but below E/F/G in all circumstances, and around the same as Italy.

My reasoning:
1. Beyond Bulgaria, Turkey is immediately locked into a major life-or-death struggle with either Russia or Austria/Italy. Working with Russia usually necessitates a Lepanto to form in response, and if a Lepanto can threaten fleets on Aegean & Eastern Med, Turkey is forever limited to 4 SCs without outside intervention.

2. Invading Russia can be successful, but lets Austria run wild and usually work with Italy against you.

3. Turkey's defensive prowess is inherently flawed the moment Russia can get an army in Armenia or Italy into Syria. There's too much to hold with too few units, and Bulgaria is often vulnerable to attacks.

I'd like to see some more opinions on this. Perhaps I'm just bad with Turkey, but I find it to be highly overrated and often targeted in the meta like France is.

[worcej]

I am not a strong player, but I also feel the same about Turkey - it takes shrewd diplomacy/negotiations and depends on your opponents too heavily to succeed imo

[Chaqa]

I am not a strong player, but I also feel the same about Turkey - it takes shrewd diplomacy/negotiations and depends on your opponents too heavily to succeed imo

I'm mostly speaking for Gunboat, but also press - you can often be locked out of games simply due to your status as a bogeyman.

[Senlac]

For some reason I like anything except England & Italy. Guess I have problem with fleets...
I find Turkey is easy for “not losing”, but a difficult solo opportunity.
(PS. I only ever play Full Press Diplomacy)

[goldfinger0303]

I think that's a pretty hot take, Chaqa. Granted, my sample is pretty small, but I've topped the board every time I've drawn Turkey in gunboat, I'm pretty sure. Or at least done it at a much higher rate than any other power. I think it very much depends on the setting you play in as well.

[Chaqa]

I think that's a pretty hot take, Chaqa. Granted, my sample is pretty small, but I've topped the board every time I've drawn Turkey in gunboat, I'm pretty sure. Or at least done it at a much higher rate than any other power. I think it very much depends on the setting you play in as well.

I think it's a more recent phenomenon. The anti-France meta has meant a lot of E/G, and a lot of weakened Russias up north. To compensate, Russia focuses south. Additionally, Italy often knows it will be safe from France, Russia will be weak, so Italy teams up with Austria to form a Lepanto.

Lepanto + southern-focus Russia means Turkey suffers more.

[Carl Tuckerson]

I think it's properly rated as the second best country behind France, but it iscloser to the rest of the field than it is to France.

Your perception implies to me that Turkey is the victim of its own success, much in the same way France has been. They look weaker than they are because the metagame is actively adjusting to their comparative strength.

[goldfinger0303]

I think Carl hit the nail on the head there. France getting crushed in the recent meta doesn't mean France is a bad country. So if the current meta targeting France has an adverse effect on Turkey, that doesn't mean it isn't powerful in a neutral state.

[Matticus13]

I'm picking up what you're laying down, Chaqa. The meta does work against Turkey in a gunboat setting. That said, one crack is all it takes to blow the east open for Turkey. That 5th unit usually all it takes.

My main concern when drawing Turkey (other than staying afloat in the early game) is breaking through the stalemate line. They start so far away....

[The Belgian Bulldog]

One of the flaws you raise is also that Turkey has a slow start. That is true but the upside is that it can also be defended probably best after France. And the actual magic about Turkey is that, once it picks up speed and particularly in midgame, it often becomes a powerhouse without much effort, and that it has one of the better prospects of achieving a solo.

Also important to me is that the juggernaut alliance, while being considered as one of the most powerful alliances, is probably the one that actually is rarely Turkey's best choice. Juggernaut serves Russia better than Turkey, particularly when it is met by Austria & Italy teaming up. I sincerely believe that Turkey needs to be played with sufficient creativity for it to be most succesful.

Disclaimer : I play almost only full press games, so I can't contribute much on the gunboat perspective.

[Restitution]

One of the flaws you raise is also that Turkey has a slow start. That is true but the upside is that it can also be defended probably best after France. And the actual magic about Turkey is that, once it picks up speed and particularly in midgame, it often becomes a powerhouse without much effort, and that it has one of the better prospects of achieving a solo.

Also important to me is that the juggernaut alliance, while being considered as one of the most powerful alliances, is probably the one that actually is rarely Turkey's best choice. Juggernaut serves Russia better than Turkey, particularly when it is met by Austria & Italy teaming up. I sincerely believe that Turkey needs to be played with sufficient creativity for it to be most succesful.

Disclaimer : I play almost only full press games, so I can't contribute much on the gunboat perspective.

How do you convince I or A to work with you, when it is clearly not in their interest to do so?

[Matticus13]

How do you convince I or A to work with you, when it is clearly not in their interest to do so?

Geography doesn't dictate alliances. Diplomacy does!

[Carl Tuckerson]

How do you convince I or A to work with you, when it is clearly not in their interest to do so?

Geography doesn't dictate alliances. Diplomacy does!

While ultimately true, geography is important, and Restitution raises a good point. In press you've simply got to find a way to start a row between A/I. It's irrelevant whether A/I's best interest in the abstract is in killing Turkey together if one party deviates from that best interest. You have to take what you can get in those spots.
For gunboat, I think Turkey mostly has to avoid dying. Don't give up the Black Sea until Russia and Austria are entrenched against each other (or ideally not at all), don't let Italy have the free and easy convoy, etc. If A/I ally you're going to lose Bulgaria so forget about trying to hold that. Just make sure Italy doesn't make a landing and he'll probably fall far enough behind that one or the other will turn.

The strength of Turkey in gunboat is less that it cannot be attacked (what fun would that be?) and more that it takes a lot of work to finish the job, and if you fail, Turkey is very likely to be able to make a recovery. Turkey isn't the sick man of Europe, but a zombie that refuses to be buried for good.

[RoganJosh]

I also think Turkey is overrated.

Turkey's problem is that it is dependent on Austria and Italy not allying. And, the A/I alliance is, in gunboat, so beneficial both for Austria and Italy that you expect it in every game. Turkey's only hope is a premature stab in the A/I alliance. And, without press, there is little Turkey can do to entice that stab.

[Matticus13]

While ultimately true, geography is important, and Restitution raises a good point.

From a geographical standpoint, Turkey needs Russian, Austrian, and Italian centers to have a solo opportunity. They are all reasonable choices as far as an alliance goes, in gunboat or press. All have their benefits and pitfalls.

@RoganJosh: I am likely in the minority, but I don't agree with the A/I gunboat narrative that persists on webDip. Italy gets hosed in the arrangement more times than not.

[dargorygel]

I do not think Turkey is overrated.

For three empirical reasons.

First, I enjoy playing as Turkey. So shut up.

Second, I have the most success against the bots when I play Turkey. So no secret cigar-smokey-room discussions and promises and division of the Balkans. Just gunboat like tactics.

Third, it is freaking THANKSGIVING, chaqa.... watcha talking about Turkey being overrated?

[Carl Tuckerson]

While ultimately true, geography is important, and Restitution raises a good point.

From a geographical standpoint, Turkey needs Russian, Austrian, and Italian centers to have a solo opportunity. They are all reasonable choices as far as an alliance goes, in gunboat or press. All have their benefits and pitfalls.

@RoganJosh: I am likely in the minority, but I don't agree with the A/I gunboat narrative that persists on webDip. Italy gets hosed in the arrangement more times than not.

Certainly, but the issue unique to Turkey (and I guess England on the other side) is that the corner position reduces the number of counterweights you have to Turkish expansion. It's a lot harder to put Turkey back in the box once you open it as opposed to, say, Austria, or Italy, or even France. I think Turkey might be the single most intractable country of the bunch.

[Matticus13]

While ultimately true, geography is important, and Restitution raises a good point.

From a geographical standpoint, Turkey needs Russian, Austrian, and Italian centers to have a solo opportunity. They are all reasonable choices as far as an alliance goes, in gunboat or press. All have their benefits and pitfalls.

@RoganJosh: I am likely in the minority, but I don't agree with the A/I gunboat narrative that persists on webDip. Italy gets hosed in the arrangement more times than not.

Certainly, but the issue unique to Turkey (and I guess England on the other side) is that the corner position reduces the number of counterweights you have to Turkish expansion. It's a lot harder to put Turkey back in the box once you open it as opposed to, say, Austria, or Italy, or even France. I think Turkey might be the single most intractable country of the bunch.

Most definitely, Mr. Tuckerson. Once they (and England) begin to "matriculate the ball down the field" they become a problem. That said, I have vanquished a few large Turks in my time

I would say the most *unnatural* of A/I/R is Austria. It's nearly impossible to keep it together after Russia/Italy fall, but realistically, all of the eastern alliance options have about the same life expectancy (if the goal is to win).

[qrzy]

I think Lepanto is overrated. :)

[Restitution]

I think Lepanto is overrated. :)

For whom, A or I?

If what people are saying is true (that the A/I alliance is bad for Italy, and he'd be better off attacking Austria)... well, that is *really* bad for Austria who is already in a rough place and cannot survive being attacked by Italy. But perhaps that is exactly why Italy should attack Austria.

Or is it rather that Italy should go for France, given the anti-French meta?