Jesus was a Socialist

[Jamiet99uk]

Your perpetual failing is your desperate need to have your particular God at the centre of all good things.

Attributing dissent to intellectual dishonesty makes you blind.

I thought it was masturbation that did that?

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Your perpetual failing is your desperate need to have your particular God at the centre of all good things.

Attributing dissent to intellectual dishonesty makes you blind.

I thought it was masturbation that did that?

Attributing blindness to masturbation makes you intellectually dishonest?

[Pengwinja]

Pengwinja's "forbidden fruit" post finished with an assertion about the non Judea Christian influenced judge having an "inner sense of what is right and what is wrong", with inference that is a result of being created by God.
The "even the person who rejects God, if they have goodness in them OT is placed there by God their creator" fallacy.
Concluded with a patronising "does this help?"

Wake up dopey Pengwinja,

Is it conceivable to your ideologically blinkered mind that sheer fkn intelligence in homo sapiens has enabled humanist ethics to provide the non Judea Christian influenced for judge or any person to decide what is acceptable and what is not in a civilised society.

Your perpetual failing is your desperate need to have your particular God at the centre of all good things.
Insist on the exclusive existence of your chosen God and deny the existence of any other gods.. now that is a feat of self delusion of impressive proportions in my opinion

Does that help sweetypie?

I didn’t mean to patronize, I was just asking a question. Looking back, i can see how it could be taken that way.

Depending on how you define intelligence, the justice we have would change in that example. If our intelligence was based off of trying to farther society, wouldn’t we do horrendous things to people in the name of science? Of course, everyone here should know that human testing is very unethical. Also, wouldn’t we not kill each other for no reason? Murder isn’t good for society.

Yes, I perpetually fail, which is why I need God.

[Pengwinja]

Attributing dissent to intellectual dishonesty makes you blind.

I thought it was masturbation that did that?

Attributing blindness to masturbation makes you intellectually dishonest?

Wha… huh…

[brainbomb]

most of the people here have shown the extent of their devotion to christianity stops when someone starts sniffing around their enormous 401k, and investment accounts. People talking about capitalism being the system Jesus wouldve preferred, yes im sure jesus would be spending his time hanging around people with 8.6 million dollars invested in apple shares, sitting on it so that it can pass down generationally and never see anyone elses hands. yes im sure thats what jesus was promoting.

[Pengwinja]

most of the people here have shown the extent of their devotion to christianity stops when someone starts sniffing around their enormous 401k, and investment accounts. People talking about capitalism being the system Jesus wouldve preferred, yes im sure jesus would be spending his time hanging around people with 8.6 million dollars invested in apple shares, sitting on it so that it can pass down generationally and never see anyone elses hands. yes im sure thats what jesus was promoting.

Socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Capitalism: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit.

I don’t think that Jesus values currency as much as we do. He probably sees it as a tool, which is essentially what money is, not something to be hoarded. Was Jesus a socialist? I don’t think so, but I don’t think he was a capitalist either.

[CaptainFritz28]

most of the people here have shown the extent of their devotion to christianity stops when someone starts sniffing around their enormous 401k, and investment accounts. People talking about capitalism being the system Jesus wouldve preferred, yes im sure jesus would be spending his time hanging around people with 8.6 million dollars invested in apple shares, sitting on it so that it can pass down generationally and never see anyone elses hands. yes im sure thats what jesus was promoting.

I don't have 8.6 million dollars in Apple shares...

This assumption is just as ridiculous as Jamie's was earlier. Why on earth do you think Christians give to the Church? What, do you think it's just a way to hoard money? If I found that my church were hoarding the money that I gave to it, I would stop giving to that church and find another one that actually uses the money for good. Rather, Christians are very clearly commanded to give to those in need. If they don't, but instead hoard the money they have, then yeah, I'd agree that they aren't following the Bible's commands.

But where in the world do you get the idea that those of us on this forum would rather invest in megacorporations and hoard wealth than give to those who need it? Is it because we believe that capitalism is the best economic system for a nation? I've seen, even just in my own life, that the more money you give to the government, the more the government wastes. When I give to a church or Christian organization, I expect them to use that for the good of those who need it, and when they don't do that, I find an organization that does. Promoting private property rights is not the same as promoting hoarding of wealth and a lack of generosity. Historically, it's quite the opposite.

Why do you display such an incoherence of logic?

[Pengwinja]

most of the people here have shown the extent of their devotion to christianity stops when someone starts sniffing around their enormous 401k, and investment accounts. People talking about capitalism being the system Jesus wouldve preferred, yes im sure jesus would be spending his time hanging around people with 8.6 million dollars invested in apple shares, sitting on it so that it can pass down generationally and never see anyone elses hands. yes im sure thats what jesus was promoting.

I don't have 8.6 million dollars in Apple shares...

This assumption is just as ridiculous as Jamie's was earlier. Why on earth do you think Christians give to the Church? What, do you think it's just a way to hoard money? If I found that my church were hoarding the money that I gave to it, I would stop giving to that church and find another one that actually uses the money for good. Rather, Christians are very clearly commanded to give to those in need. If they don't, but instead hoard the money they have, then yeah, I'd agree that they aren't following the Bible's commands.

But where in the world do you get the idea that those of us on this forum would rather invest in megacorporations and hoard wealth than give to those who need it? Is it because we believe that capitalism is the best economic system for a nation? I've seen, even just in my own life, that the more money you give to the government, the more the government wastes. When I give to a church or Christian organization, I expect them to use that for the good of those who need it, and when they don't do that, I find an organization that does. Promoting private property rights is not the same as promoting hoarding of wealth and a lack of generosity. Historically, it's quite the opposite.

Why do you display such an incoherence of logic?

Chill man, he wasn’t saying that we actually had that much, he was just trying to make a point. Also, remember that he said most people, so that doesn’t necessarily mean you or me specifically. I don’t have things that are like this anyway. Making money isn’t necessarily bad, but just stockpiling it is, which is the point he was pointing out (i think).

We don’t have to start using aggressive language, which I have tried, and apparently failed, to not use. He never said Christians as a whole, remember.

[CaptainFritz28]

It seemed rather specifically pointed towards the Christians on this forum, or at least that is what was stated.

True, my language was harsher than it should've been (especially with that last line). It just seemed rather irrational to be making the same baseless assumption with absolutely no reasoning for such a claim. The underlying assumption of brainbomb's point was that anyone who supports capitalism must be a fan of the hoarding of wealth, and that therefore the Christians on this forum who support capitalism don't really care about Christ as much as they do about money. On the contrary, I support capitalism because I believe it to be the best way for the needs of the poor and the starving to be met.

Thank you, pengwinja, for your reminder. I do apologize, brainbomb, for the wording I used.

[brainbomb]

I wasnt offended. I assume most conservatives have millions stashed away in investments that will only ever remain hoarded generational wealth.

[Pengwinja]

Many people support capitalism to hoard wealth. Others support it because it seems to be an effective system. You aren’t necessarily wrong brainbomb, but most the people in this forum don’t support it to hoard wealth, I believe. I can’t confirm this for everyone else, but I can confirm that I don’t want to hoard wealth.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Broad stroke conversations like this always seem to fall apart due, in part, to misaligned definitions.

Some folks seem to think capitalism = some sort of Scrooge McDuck economy where the rich literally sit on a pile of gold rather than investing, generating wealth, etc. Meanwhile, "socialism" seems to represent either something like Norway (i.e., a capitalist social democracy) or the USSR (i.e., an economy that no longer exists and which no one defends anyhow).

This is paralleled in the debates about religion. Detractors seem to think, mostly incorrectly, that Christianity is a slavish and unthinking cult that's fixated only on the supernatural. Meanwhile, God has been described by Christians on this site as either being the literal entity exactly as described in the Bible, or some nebulous force for good in the universe that is more-or-less captured by every other major religion.

It's often unclear what folks are even getting grumpy about at various points lol.

[Diplomacy&Warfare]

Broad stroke conversations like this always seem to fall apart due, in part, to misaligned definitions.

Some folks seem to think capitalism = some sort of Scrooge McDuck economy where the rich literally sit on a pile of gold rather than investing, generating wealth, etc. Meanwhile, "socialism" seems to represent some either something like Norway (i.e., a capitalist social democracy) or the USSR (i.e., an economy that no longer exists and which one defends anyhow).

This is paralleled in the debates about religion. Detractors seem to think, mostly incorrectly, that Christianity is a slavish and unthinking cult that's fixated only on the supernatural. Meanwhile, God has been described by Christians on this site as either being the literal entity exactly as described in the Bible, or some nebulous force for good in the universe that is more-or-less captured by every other major religion.

It's often unclear what folks are even getting grumpy about at various points lol.

I agree. Most political and religious discussions are filled with misunderstandings.
However, [Redacted because this is not the Politics sub-forum].

Anyway, I myself look at religion as a personal choice, and a poor choice of topic for aggressive debate.

Many people support capitalism to hoard wealth. Others support it because it seems to be an effective system. You aren’t necessarily wrong brainbomb, but most the people in this forum don’t support it to hoard wealth, I believe. I can’t confirm this for everyone else, but I can confirm that I don’t want to hoard wealth.

It's both. Most people (at least in the US) support capitalism because they are influenced by propaganda (not necessarily from the government) claiming capitalism is effective. [Redacted because this is not the Politics sub-forum].

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Most people (at least in the US) support capitalism because they are influenced by propaganda (not necessarily from the government) claiming capitalism is effective. [Redacted because this is not the Politics sub-forum].

It's probably best to be a little more generous than this when making assumptions about why folks believe what they believe. It requires a pretty high view of oneself to assume that others are deceived by some propaganda that for some reason you're immune to.

Webdip seems to have a pretty educated and thoughtful user base. I assume the Christians, atheists, socialists, economic liberals, etc., on here have all considered the alternatives and found them to be lacking.

[brainbomb]

I cant give you any specifics but in my job all I do all day is work with hundreds of millions of peoples dollars all set aside for their family.

[brainbomb]

And let me tell you aint nofucking body selling asset shares to feed namibia

[brainbomb]

Most people are conservative fiscally in order to protect their generational wealth from big govt spending. They dont want their money going to minorities or to programs they dont benefit from. And on some level I get that. But if not forced to part with money they simply wont do so. And charity is mostly just subsidized by tax breaks anyway

[CaptainFritz28]

I'd imagine a good few people do support capitalism for that reason. However, that doesn't mean that a majority of people do or that even if they do that that is their primary reason for doing so. Even then, if we assume that most people do support it for precisely that reason, that doesn't mean that it's not the most effective way to follow Jesus' command to be generous.

Regarding the fact that people generally don't give if they don't have to, my point about tithing comes up again. People don't give to the Church because they have to. We do so because we know that the Church will do good with the money which we give.

[brainbomb]

No we dont assume that. What evidence is there to suggest that churches which as tax exempt; are actually giving back?

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I think there is a more charitable view of why someone might be fiscally conservative.

If I'm taxed more, is that money really going to go to Namibia? Or will it be used by my government to spoil its base before the next election?

Even if that money were dedicated to foreign aid, is my government well positioned to make a meaningful positive impact? Is aid even the best tool available if what's really needed in Namibia is something like better governance, more private investment, etc.?

Do I have the right to oblige my neighbour to support my preferred charitable causes? If so, is this right contingent on whether I think my neighbour has too much money? How much is too much?

I could dislike the idea of private wealth but still view it as a pool of money that could eventually be expropriated for some greater public good. In that case, I may believe that it's better to allow it to grow today so that an even larger pie can be taxed tomorrow.

These aren't my beliefs. I definitely think affluent nations should have progressive taxes and use them to try to do some good in the world. But I don't think that those with some skepticism that more of this is always better are necessarily just being selfish.