I only take issue with when Europe is defined from an American centered point of view. I'd never defend the level of political religion there is in the US. But these are different issues. Over here, in many countries, Christians are quickly becoming a minority, and secularism has a much stronger base. That's probably why I feel so alienated by the radical atheism I hear from Americans. Respecting religious beliefs is important to me because they are a weak group here, and they take a ton of shit constantly. I'm mostly trying to offer more diversity and a different point of view, I'm sure a lot of you are tired with me going Sweden this, Sweden that, but I want people to be aware of other positions and how much our environment shapes us. I'm sure that if I lived in the US I'd want to purge religion from the earth too because Jesus Christ, how did you manage to get so many fundies?

Putin is never ON path, Semck. Well...never on anyone else's path. His sole purpose is to propagandize and Disinform about his particular religion of brutal, oppressive Communism.

"I thought homosexuality in communist doctrine was a disease caused by capitalist oppression?"

Bad lines developed in some places. But anyway why do you care? It's not like your Mormon buddies or Ron Paulie fundie pals are fans of 'the gays'.

"Respecting religious beliefs is important to me"- and this is why I like Vaft
Just my two cents here: Christianity does not cause evil in the world, people who take the words of the Christian Religion to an extreme causes the evil. I am not trying to make the things that some Christians do or did in the past seem less horrible, but it's not the religion, it's some of the people who practice it. but I am not going to get into any religious debate further than what I have said, because my stance is, and has always been, accept everybody, regardless of relgion/lack there of, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

"But anyway why do you care?"

I don't, really. And with communism largely (and thankfully) dead, it's irrelevant. I just enjoy pointing out how full of shit you are.

You should be grateful you don't have this disease. There is a strong correlation between religiosity of population and batshit reactionary social policy. That's probably why Sweden is generally regarded as a nice place to live.

Full of shit, right because communism has to have perfect lines on every question for me to advocate for gay rights. Who is pushing gay rights now? Funny that it isn't the so-called "anti-statist" hypocrites who link arms with neo-nazis, Mormons, and Muslim fundamentalists. It's the radical left. Libertarians have never lifted a finger for the 'liberty' of anyone but the rich.

"people who take the words of the Christian Religion to an extreme causes the evil."

Which is 80% of American Christians.

"Libertarians have never lifted a finger for the 'liberty' of anyone but the rich."

That's something I can agree with at least. Libertarians only really fight for issues that concern the upper classes. Even their definition of "liberty" is warped. But that's a discussion for another day. Good night, God bless and long live the revolution!

@Putin- hmm really? 80% huh, where did you get that number? Oh wait, I know, you pulled it out of your ass... American Christians make up approximately 65-70% of the population here, so 80% of them would be, 50-56% of the American Population... which would mean that over half of America are Christian Extremists??? hmm, last I checked half of America wasn't going around murdering people and blowing shit up and all that... so yea, get your shit straight, then come back to me, k?

"50-56% of the American Population... which would mean that over half of America are Christian Extremists??? hmm, last I checked half of America wasn't going around murdering people and blowing shit up and all that... so yea, get your shit straight, then come back to me, k?"

Ok, after you go look at the laws being passed in Texas, Oklahoma, Virginia, Georgia, and elsewhere that attack & humiliate women, all in the name of 'Christianity'.

"Bad lines developed in some places."

Congratulations, everyone. That's the closest Putin33 has ever come to saying a position taken by a communist organization is wrong. We'll wear you down into a normal liberal yet.

oh you talking about the ultrasound bill in Virginia that got... what's that word? REJECTED...
I will admit that you do have me on Texas, Oklahoma, and Georgia... but A) Virginia got shelved, and there are still 46 other states out there, some of which have similar laws, some of which don't, BUT, I still stand by that 50-56% of Americans are NOT Christian Extremists... that is why you see these huge protests in the above mentioned states OPPOSING those laws.

The Catholic Church were the FIRST to denounce Hitler.

"FIRST to denounce Hitler."

If by "denounce" you mean sign a Concordat with him, while every Catholic nation tripped over themselves trying to ally with him, then ok.

"We'll wear you down into a normal liberal yet."

Nah, you'll probably get me banned like the sniveling little tattle tale that you are before that could ever happen.

" that is why you see these huge protests in the above mentioned states OPPOSING those laws."

Yeah, not by Christians. Meanwhile national candidates for a supposedly mainstream political party endorsed these efforts.

"A) Virginia got shelved"

No, just the transvaginal probe got shelved. They still passed an ultrasound bill.

I mean just look at the war on women that Christians have mercilessly waged over the past 2 years.

by Christians and non-Christians alike actually sir, believe it or not, as previously stated, many Christians do not approve of these things that have been going on.
I know that personally, I am moderate between pro-life and pro-choice. I believe that the children should be born(cases of Rape and other such actions not included), but also believe that the parents have the right to choose if they have the child or not. I do not think less of the people who do have abortions, even if I personally don't approve of it. I, like many Christians, think that these laws you keep referring to are abominations! and the fact that they try to use our faith as moral grounds for it is sickening to me.
And to go to the homosexuality argument that was held earlier: If somebody is gay, I ask that they kindly don't make any moves on me(which some have done, despite the fact that I am straight). but I do not think less of them. That is their personal preference, so who would I be to say they are wrong? In fact, I even support gay rights, even though many do not!
" war on women that Christians have mercilessly waged over the past 2 years. " there you go lumping us all into 1 boat again that we don't all belong in. Christian Extremists, not Christians. we are going in circles now.

http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctpolitics/2008/11/the_evangelical.html

74% of Evangelicals voted Republican in 2008 and in 2004 it was 78% . The people who routinely attack gay people and women as a matter of policy & rhetoric. The people who vote for candidates who think we can "pray away the gay", etc. Turnout among Evangelicals was very high in 2004, why? Because of all the anti-gay marriage referenda on the ballot. There was endless talk about 'values voters'. Who do you think that was about?

You are an extreme minority among your co-religionists. Sorry for an analogy, but the argument you're making is akin to saying the existence of Oskar Schindler & Eduard Hempel mean we can't call the NSDAP evil.

ok so 78% Christian voters vote Republican... does not mean 78% of Christians are "anti-gay" or support these new laws. I will be the first to admit, that we are in no shortage of Christians that are like that. I am not disillusioned in that manner. I know that there are a LOT of crazies out there who are like that. but there are a LOT of people that are similar to me. It's a lot more of an even split than you think Putin. and there are many levels of it. there are those who are extremists(probably, 5% of us all) that go to insane and disgusting lengths that think they are doing good. then there are those who are closer to the extremists but not nearly as bad(those who pass these laws and support them and "pray away the gay" and such, that's probably about 35-40% of the Christians. Then there are people like me, who support what we believe, but accept others and what they believe. we make up about 25-30% of Christians. the other 25% or so are all split between the gaps between those 3 major groups, as well as those who are "christian" because they are spiritual but not religious(about 20% of that remaining 25%).
This very long and winded message is basically just me saying, I do acknowledge the issues that the extremists to put forth, but it is not fair of anybody to group as all together because we have incredibly diverse groups within our religion.

@Putin

>>"I thought homosexuality in communist doctrine was a disease caused by capitalist oppression?"

>>Bad lines developed in some places. But anyway why do you care? It's not like your Mormon buddies or Ron Paulie fundie pals are fans of 'the gays'.

Of COURSE..what was I thinking....If one, two, or maybe a whole segmaent of Communists are gay-haters, your can't blame Communism. But find Putin 1 American who has said 1 thing he thinks is morally corrupt, and the whole nation is fucking evil.

Putin -- you are such a jackass. You put out unsupported (mostly pulled out of your ass) crapp ALL the time, and when you are provided evidence to contradict your claims, you say "Ahhh....well, that just doesn't apply for *random reason pulled out of Putin's ass*..."

BAR TROLL PUTIN. GO TO YOUR ROOM you Communist gay-hater!

"ok so 78% Christian voters vote Republican... does not mean 78% of Christians are "anti-gay" or support these new laws."

Yes it does. The Republican Party is an avowedly anti-gay party. The mainstream Republican pols support these laws. Romney supports these laws. The Republican Party makes a living off of gay bashing and restricting gay rights. It arguably won the 2004 election by pandering to Christians/bashing gays. The CPAC convention, which basically controls the Republican Party, didn't allow a single gay Republican organization to attend but allowed avowed white nationalists to hold seminars. There's not a single prominent Republican voice anywhere that supports gay rights of any kind. The extent to which any exist, they are pushed out on the margins.

"I do acknowledge the issues that the extremists to put forth, but it is not fair of anybody to group as all together because we have incredibly diverse groups within our religion."

Yes well you can quibble about any/every group, the fact is the most prominent voices within your religion are anti-gay, and that there is a strong correlation between being a devout Christian and being anti-gay and anti-woman's rights. It's time for Christians to take responsibility for the kind of moral teachings that people glean from it. There is something intrinsic to Christianity that is inherently misogynistic and homophobic. The fact that not every single Christian everywhere holds these views is irrelevant to the fact that the doctrine has these qualities. Until the pro-gay religious people start speaking out and becoming more prominent in the discussion, Christianity is going to associated with these people. If you have a problem with that, then take it up with them, not me.

Are Christians in the USA still struggling with homosexuality ...... isn't it time to grow up and stop being so stoopid, just 'cos you're religious doesn't mean you should be an ignoramus, the church is full of gays and apparently a disproportionate number of paedophiles.
Are the Haters still bangin' on about pro life, grow up you naive fools, there are 7 billion people on Earth, in 50 years projected population increases suggest we'll be drowning in a cesspit of man-made pollution ,,,,,,, pro life is for clowns.
The World wants to engage with the USA on serious issues like human rights and the environment ....... it's about the country grew up and joined the debate, rather than continually support the haters; isn't it time to stop giving arms to Israel also.
As their economy crumbles around them people wrap themselves in the star-spangled banner and hope that if they shout USA repeatedly and quite loudly things will somehow get better ....... sadly this is not the case.
The American dream is just a joke guys, sold to you on the back of continued economic growth supported by cheap immigrant labour. When the growth stops what happens?
Your business model is shot to pieces, wake up and smell the jasmine tea.
If all the USA had to worry about was gays, blacks, commies and religion life would be so simple, unfotunately this seems to be all they worry about.
There is none so blind as those that cannot see
All IMHO as always
Nigee

@NigeeBaby- I agree, the Christians in America that are struggling with it(the very, very many I will not deny) DO need to grow up and realize, it is the 21st Century, times have changed. our religion has changed, but they are stuck in the old ways. I am one of the ones in America who does not struggle with that. I accept it, even if I don't agree with it.
@Putin- let me rephrase what I said about the voting thing... you said that 78% of the Christian voters... but the entire 100% of Christians didn't vote. In fact only about 30% of Christians even voted in 2008... so while 74% of 30% support that, it does not mean that 74% of Christians support that. but anyways, you are correct, those who fit into my category DO need to step up and put those who give my religion a bad name out of power. I do not have a problem with you, or anyone else who does not believe in Christianity. I have said that many times. my problem is the fact that people call Christianity "evil" and therefore attack(not literally, but with words) or put down everyone who believes in Christianity. I know that you in no way intend to insult me, you simply wish to voice your opinion and defend it. and it is a very valid opinion. I will once again, not deny that there are MANY problems within the Christian church. I just wish that you would try to see this from my side and maybe, take it a little easier on the insults of Christianity as a whole and try to focus them more on the people who do bad things supposedly "in the name of Christianity"?

@Krellin- Putin actually does have some legitimate concerns. Some of his stuff, yes, is inaccurate, while other stuff is accurate and deserves to be addressed and countered/agreed upon. Let the man speak his words, he has some good points, and we are having a nice, fairly civil debate about the issues at hand.

"You should be grateful you don't have this disease. There is a strong correlation between religiosity of population and batshit reactionary social policy. That's probably why Sweden is generally regarded as a nice place to live."

I would be careful with such an example, they also sold vast quantities of iron ore to Nazi Germany for a very hefty profit. They also allowed the Nazis to cross Norwegian resources over their border which could then be shipped to Germany. The war could not have lasted as long as it did without Sweden's help.

maximilian, I don't see what this has to do with religion, but sure, I'll comment on that.

Yes, Sweden collaborated with the Nazis in some ways. Yes, there was a lot of germanophilia in the upper classes, the nobility had strong ties to Germany, it was and is an important trading partner (Swedish economy is based on export), there were Nazi elements in society too, although they were never dominant. These are things you can criticise Sweden for.

Sweden tried to remain neutral. Denmark and Norway didn't stand a chance when Germany invaded, neither would Sweden have. So they chose to balance allied and Nazi requests, to avoid being invaded. Do you think that if Sweden stopped exports of iron to Germany and refused passage over railway lines, that this would magically stop the war? Or would they simply have invaded and taken over the iron mines and railways in a matter of weeks, with horrible consequences for the Swedish population? It's easy to say "They should have stood up to the Nazis". Try saying it when you are surrounded by the most vicious war machine the world has ever seen.

Also, Sweden used its neutrality to aid in many ways. We managed to save almost all Danish jews, they were given refuge in Sweden. We also took in many Norwegian refugees, including Jews, and there was covert training of the Norwegian resistance by the Swedish military. Swedish business had access to Germany due to the neutrality, and many used this opportunity to spy or aid organisations under occupation, like the Polish resistance. When the war was over, Sweden was one of the first to be able to save and offer refuge to victims of the concentration camps.

It's never black and white, is it?

*shakes head*

I can't side with Putin or krellin here...

Simply put, I just don't think the Church can really say it's being "persecuted," not now, and certainly not when "persecution" to THEM means, at worst, their views being combated when, during the height of the Church, "persecution" for Jews and gypsies and atheists and whomever else was in the crosshairs of the Catholic Church at the time meant DEATH.



If the sad occasion comes when they are thrown to lions again...

When they are CRUCIFIED again...

THEN the Church can claim to be persecuted--and I'd be willing to bet many would come to their defense, myself included (I still find their views foul, but no one should be tortured or killed like that because of their views.)

Until such a time, though:

For the Church to say it is "persecuted" is an *INSULT* to all those groups and peoples who have really and truly and horribly and actually BEEN persecuted.

"A 78-percent majority of Americans is Christian. Only about a third of them self-identify as evangelical, which is a very rough proxy for the Christian conservative minority that increasingly insists on being called, simply, “Christian.” Such totum pro parte synecdoche de-legitimizes mainline Protestantism, historically black Protestantism, and Catholicism, which account, combined, for most of the other two-thirds of all Christians. The de-legitimization is why Christian conservatives favor it."

http://www.tnr.com/blog/timothy-noah/102631/nyt-mislabels-christians

"I would be careful with such an example, they also sold vast quantities of iron ore to Nazi Germany for a very hefty profit. "

What does that have to do with Sweden being a socially progressive country today that is largely devoid of Christian fundamentalists?

I mean Norway's Christian fundamentalist community had a psycho go around slaughtering socialist youth members. It's clear that even in the Nordic countries, the handful of Christian radicals are a danger to society.

"The war could not have lasted as long as it did without Sweden's help."

Or the French, or the Dutch, or the Danish. They all collaborated with the Third Reich. I imagine Dutch, Belgian French industrial production, and Romanian oil production, were more important to the war effort than Swedish iron ore. Germans had to do very little in the way of administering occupied west European territories and generally got enthusiastic compliance with all of their decrees from the native authorities. The entire Dutch police force helped deport its Jewish population. Contrast that with Sweden's conduct.