I had an interesting talk with Acosmist about where morals are derived from. He argued that morals ar derived from God or Spirituality (correct me if I'm wrong but thats how it came across, and I don't have enough time t read the book and will try to read your paper).
While I argued that morals are created over a period of time and by obdervation. Thus we have our basic laws of life (10 commandments in general). but that An individual uses these set morals and adds and interperets them into his own. And thus once an individuals idea is held by a majority or large group it becomes a moral to those born into that society.

Is it really? Or is conscience merely the abstract fear of punishment instilled in us as children?

Aw, our little denis learned how to copy and paste wikipedia. I'm so proud.

Are a luxury that people need to know when to throw away. When it comes down to survival, you need to do whatever it takes.

Geo its not copy pasted from anywhere and its my thoughts and if people have sense it shouldn't be the first statement of the sort

Morals are ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE.

There are NO natural/God-given laws.

When you establish a government (ie a Leviathan) you agree on concepts that MOST of the people feel are right, wrong, should be legal, illegal, etc. But that's a synthetic morality... it's totally up to you on a personal level, and up to the state on a government level (ex. If you kill someone because you believe it's right, then you may feel whatever you want, morally or otherwise, but as murder is outlawed, it will be deemed wrong in that sense, as you committed the crime in a place where that action was prohibited, and by living there you agreed to abide by that law.)

im having trouble with SSreichsFuher being a christian. isnt that name somewhat incongruent with christian morals ? im too sacred to ask you about your opinion on jews.

he is a hard line white supremicist from michigan (I hear he runs with a group, you might have heard of 'm, the *ahem* KKK *ahem*)

If that was a joke I suggest you take it back Denis, if not then fair enough and I am surprised by the variety of people on this site.
Saying that Sean, the Nazi's often claimed they were doing the work of god, and tried to force the church to support them, so its not too incongruous.

The actual issue, hmm. I think our morals are subjective, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily non-deterministic. Bit vague I know, I'll try and expand on it this evening if I have more time

The Nazis were anti-religion, chief.

...are evolutionary niches which for in certain enviromental situations allow us to thrive (not merely survive).

The naturalist fallacy, hey, it's been like...a month since I saw that.

you might want to explain why it's a fallacy instead of just stated it without supporting evidence, otherwise i might disregard what you say unimportant and you as worthless.

I'm not sure that I believe that morals can be simplified as an evolutionary niche that allows man to thrive in their environment. I also believe most are subjective, but are there any morals that people believe are more universal or intrinsic in nature?

"you might want to explain why it's a fallacy instead of just stated it without supporting evidence, otherwise i might disregard what you say unimportant and you as worthless."

Crack a damn book. The naturalist fallacy is well-known. Perhaps you should stop being so stupid!

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moore/#3

gg, genius

Thanks, a simple explaination of the fallacy would have sufficed, if you are capable or understanding it.

I don't claim that goodness (which is itself arbitrary) is some kind of natural thing, I claim that there are some strategies which benifit us in certain enviromental niches, and we call them Morales.

So either you don't understand the naturalist fallacy, or you don't understand what i'm claiming. Which is it?

Aw, I pricked his ego and how he's lashing out like a child. What stupid thing will he say next? Stay tuned!

Keep digging...

So basically you can't contribute to this conversation. Good work.

Acosmist is incorrect. Orathaic statement has nothing to do with the naturalistic fallacy.

Orathaic is correct. It is highly probably (indeed certain) that morality has evolutionary origins. But this has nothing to do with the naturalistic fallacy.
If orathiac had claimed that if something that is natural is therefore good, then he would be committing the fallacy. This is not what he is saying.

Oh, and in case i'm not being entirely clear, people, (the Nazis included) claim that what they are doing is Right. It is usually a successful strategy which becomes engrained in our society/culture.

For example, if the Nazis had succeeded in dominating Europe they would have used this as evidence supporting their claim of being a master race. The would have claimed all the morale superiority in the world. I'm not saying it is intrinsically good/right, i'm just claiming that successful strategies (which are usually limited to be successful only in certain enviromental conditions) become engrained in our culture as morales.

The naturalistic fallacy is sometimes connected with evolution but only applies when the attempt is made to define moral or good in terms of evolution. eg. something is good because it is more evolved. It does NOT apply to orathaic's point that our moral instinct is a survival characteristic acquired through evolutionary development.

Morals should be above law. Morals is what makes us humans.

Hellalt, I think i agree, Laws should be based on Morals, thus they should agree. (Though I would say Law should be below morals...)

Some might say laws are the lowest common denominator of people's moral values.
In other cases we don't allow murder just because one individual considers it morally accaptable.

You are 100% correct in theory orathaic. Unfortunately our current legislative system is far from perfect and all too often only represents the morals or interests of the few.

yeah, laws should, in theory be perfect. Alas they are amde by mere men who have proven less than perfect in capability... supermen we are not. Though we may strive for greatness.

the would read better if i punctuated correctly.

"Laws should, in theory, be perfect."

hey hey hey, i am not a nazi. i think jews should be treated equally. even though they are Gods chosen people who betrayed him 2000 years ago. I hate rascists. I get a lot of crap about my name, but it just sounds like a cool title. for a ruler or something.