What if you play the blues, but then mix it in with some sort of house style electronic music... or some other sort of innovation. So the original context and meaning is not carried through, but elements of the style and form are.

Is that wrong?

"White people are usually going to be wearing dreads because they are fetishizing a culture they don't understand. However, when I was in Jamaica I did meet white rastas who had gone the distance and integrated into the community there. That, I feel, is different. But if it's just your local stoner doing it because he thinks it looks cool? That's appropriation."

If an African American hip hop or rock artist wears dreads (not a rasta) is that (mis)appropriation? (I am still not sure whether appropriation is always pejorative, hence the prefix mis in brackets).

Spyman, look at your questions, and then look at what Thucy said:

"It's 100% about the attitude with which such things are adopted."

And then ask yourself how your questions ("is doing X appropriation? is doing y appropriation? is doing z appropriation?") are in any way addressing that. You're just prompting Thucy to say "it depends" and then repeat himself.

Spyman, look at your questions, and then look at what Thucy said:

"It's 100% about the attitude with which such things are adopted."

I don't what that means. I don't know how you arrive at a decision about what the "right attitude is". It's awfully subjective and judgmental. For one thing we can't read other people's minds, so we don't really know for sure what their attitude is, or whether that attitude is "valid".

Do you know what the "right attitude" is?

So a white stoner gets dreads because he thinks they look cool. Personally I think that is an okay attitude. But then I don't think that Rasta's "own" the hairstyle.

If the white guy is a sincere radical political activist, I suppose then that makes his attitude okay perhaps?

Thinking about the African American hip hop artist who also gets dreads. He is not a Rasta. He is not wearing the dreads for the same reason as a Jamaican Rasta. He is wearing because he likes the style. That is ultimately for the same reason that the white stoner chooses to wear dreads.

I suspect Thucy will say that the white stoner is wrong, but the African American hip hop artist is okay. But I don't know why. From a power relations perspective, as far as economic power is concerned, African Americans are on average wealthier than Jamaicans; culturally African American culture is very powerful. It's every where, tv,radio, film, iTunes. So according to that formula of power relations,no the African American should not wear dreads.

Lethogica... I should add also, I am trying to figure out if Iunderstand the formula.

So with my first example, I am expecting Thucy to give an unequivocal "no!" If he does say "no" then I sort of understand what he is saying. I may not agree, but at least I will some idea what it is I am disagreeing with.

It all seems a bit too esoteric for me. But then I am a materialist-rationalist, I guess (I certainly would not be insulted if someone called me that).

"I don't what that means. I don't know how you arrive at a decision about what the "right attitude is". It's awfully subjective and judgmental. For one thing we can't read other people's minds, so we don't really know for sure what their attitude is, or whether that attitude is "valid".

Do you know what the "right attitude" is?"

Well, my position is different than Thucy's and I had a different conclusion about white dreads, which I stated last page. My main point was that if you were expecting unequivocal "yes" or "no" answers to your examples from Thucy's position, you didn't understand Thucy's position. This "likes the style" bit is closer to engaging with Thucy, and maybe you'll get something out of it.

i'm going to try to make this my last post on this thread.

Let's ignore dreads for a second. If you live in a society with racial divides, and are part of a discriminated against group, then there are two obvious strategies (obvious to me at least) you are likely to adopt.

One assimilation, try to minimize the differences between your self and the other race, in order to 'pass' or count as an 'honorary' member of that race.

The other is to build up cultural ties with you family and friends and to create a community (a feeling of belonging) which shelters you from the harm of the systematic oppression and discrimination.

Now taking that community and feeling of belonging, that shelter, taking it away from a person harms them.

Ok, are we back to dreads already? It is a small but obvious part of that shelter. By wearing dreads as a white person, you're not taking away the shelter but you are taking a small piece of it. (previously, i talked about Japan and 'strong' cultures, the difference being, Japanese culture is not acting as a shelter).

IF you live in a society where some people feel the need to assimilate in order to survive, while other have the privilege of expressing themselves however they like. Then you have inequality in your society. And wearing dreads as a white person - if it is an expression, if it says anything at all about you - says 'I don't care about the systematic discrimination of people of colour'.

And i've also said above, you're allowed to be an asshole if you want.

Now maybe you haven't had this conversation, and you think it means 'i'm not aware of the cultural significance of this hair style, i'm just fetishising the exotic'.

And again, i'm stating the case as strongly as i can, but i don't necessarily think this is the biggest problem in race politics in the US. The discussion is useful if it helps you to understand why this small thing is problematic. hopefully understanding this small thing will help you see bigger problems.

I don't know if i agree with the attitudes thing or not. That is like arguing that your intention is what matters, regardless of the consequences. Sure it can be MORE problematic if your intentions are worse. But when you reinforce the inequality in a system, you are not helping.

So, yeah, if you change system, if you move to Jamaican (or New Orleans if we're talking about Jazz) if you live in a place where the culture you are adopting is in the majority. It can be much less problematic (will still probably stink of privilege, and maybe with the wrong attitudes of fetishisation and entitlement, you could still be doing harm in a more direct personal way... but maybe you're not contributing to a system of oppression...)

Spyman, do you think it might be understandable why it rankles some people that when white women wear dreads it's called "cute" or a "fresh look" while when black women wear them they are called "unprofessional" and "nappy headed"?

Ora has made this point over and over again, and you keep repeating yourself about how nobody "owns" a hairstyle. So evidently white people can take whatever they want as their playthings and face no consequences for it and not recognize where they are taking something from, and it's ok. Just like when imperialists take other culture's heirlooms and put them in their museums for their people to amuse themselves, whereas the cultures they dominate are forced to adopt the imperial language and manner of dress in order to get jobs.

Anybody who complains is either "self flagellating" and just likes being angry for no reason.

It is not per se racist for white people to wear black hairstyles but it is indicative of white privilege that they are able to do so. This shouldn't be difficult to understand. But whenever white privilege is brought up some people stick their fingers in their ears.

Funniest thread I've read for months. Yup, adopting a haircut popular in other cultures is just like Imperial domination. Couldn't make it up :p.

Yes of course that is how you would read that. Hit me up next time you're denied a job for having a white hairstyle. Kthx.

If there was a poster child for sticking fingers in one's ears it would be of Octavious, who once said we don't need a women's day because his wife said it was unimportant. Pancake day is more important. He also supports a PM who openly embraces islamophoboa and race baiting to win mayoral races. So obviously he's an expert.

I'm sure your white bro friends on here will give you plenty of plus 1s, which after all is what is important.

Great left wing philosophical thought experiments of the modern age #32:

"If a white girl wears dreadlocks in a forest and no one is around to see it, does it cause offense?"

There is a serious point I'd like to make, though. This farce of a thread is symbolic of the state of current left wing thinking. The foot soldiers of left leaning progressive thought have advanced so far from the massed ranks of the general public that they increasingly no longer hear you. This is fundamentally bad for democracy, and I am convinced is a cause of the increasingly odd choices that the electorate are making these days.

@ Putin

" He also supports a PM who openly embraces islamophoboa and race baiting to win mayoral races. So obviously he's an expert."

Lol! Oh Putin, you delightfully hypocritical left wing dingbat. You're voting for Trump :p

"Spyman, do you think it might be understandable why it rankles some people that when white women wear dreads it's called "cute" or a "fresh look" while when black women wear them they are called "unprofessional" and "nappy headed"?"

Is the solution to this making white dreads a social taboo, or fighting the racist conception of black people wearing black hairstyles as 'unprofessional'? Or somewhere in between? It's clear that there is a problem here; not so clear that 'insufficient castigation of whites wearing dreads' is that problem. Which isn't to say that whites wearing dreads can't itself be a problem, contextually, but it seems to be a *different* problem, and narrower than 'whites wearing dreads'.

(Note 1: I also agree that whites with dreads being accepted in business contexts is an example of privilege.)
(Note 2: when white hippies wore dreads, was that a 'cute' and 'fresh' look, or was it similarly 'dirty' and 'unprofessional' because hippies were seen as dirty and unprofessional? Has that changed as the perception of hippies in general changed?)

I don't think dreads on white people are generally considered acceptable in a business environment, unless it an especially liberal business environment like a surf board business or academia.
Most white people who wear them are students or people with jobs were a "professional" image is not required.
I certainly have never come across anyone with dreads in my business dealings. And I work with people in advertising and marketing which has more relaxed standards than most businesses environments.

Lethologica when I asked if you knew what the "right attitude" was (the example we were talking about was playing the blues), I meant did you know what Thucy meant by the "right attitude". That is could you predict whether or not a particular use of the blues (the example I gave was house music) was acceptable or not (ie not racist).
Ideally social rules should be simple and consinstent enough to be understandable by all, especially if you are going to label someone as racist for failing to abide by them.

"Ok, are we back to dreads already? It is a small but obvious part of that shelter. By wearing dreads as a white person, you're not taking away the shelter but you are taking a small piece of it. (previously, i talked about Japan and 'strong' cultures, the difference being, Japanese culture is not acting as a shelter)."

Orathaic, do black people actually feel this way? How would you know how they feel? Do you have much dealing with people with African ancestry? Have they told you that they feel this way about white people wearing dreads? Keep in mind we are not talking about an ancient tradition here. The fashion amongst both black and white people in America has only become popular since the 1980s onwards.

What if the percentage of black people who feel this way is statistically insignificant. And what if those who do are in fact mostly young middle class black students who happened to have embraced something they learned in a humanities course at a university? That is they never had a problem with it before.

What if most black people think the idea is ridiculous? You don't think they might find your position as patronizing, especially if you had had very little contact with people of African ancestry.

I don't know about you but when I hear an extraordinary claim my initial position is one of skepticism until I am convinced by actual evidence. Is there any survey data, for example, that supports your position?

Now whether or not there is some double standard regarding dreads is an entirely separate question. Personally I am doubtful. Dreads on a white person is very much a counter culture thing anyway. As I said before it is not something that you see
very often in the business world. So I don't believe there is a double standard. It is less of black versus white thing, but rather a young radical vs old conservative thing.

Show me evidence that white people wearing dreads hurts black people and I will be more likely to change my views.

@"Show me evidence that white people wearing dreads hurts black people and I will be more likely to change my views."

So do you undersyand the arguement i just made? That in my model it CAN hurt black people?

I want to mention that it is not just a fashion trend, but there is a biological component. But who cares, there is inequality.

As to your reasonable questions asking for evidence, please look to google, as i'm done here. I was explaining why 'in general' cultural appropriation is problematic - and you are really grasping at straws with this: "And what if those who do are in fact mostly young middle class black students who happened to have embraced something they learned in a humanities course at a university?"

Talk about a post-hoc rationalisation. You don't want to believe so you have constructed a reason to doubt. And even if the idea of cultural appropriation has been popularised by universities (who jave the specific job of spreading knowledge) doesn't mean it isn't a real thing. Maybe the lecturers learned about it by, you know, talking to black people. Learned about how it feels to live in an oppresive society... And that is exactly what you should do if you want an answer to questions about how many people feel this way.

Even if dreads inly became fashionable in the 80s, i'm sure you can find other examples of similar cultural appropriation. How old is blues music? Apply all my arguements to ither examples.

And both the 'shelter' and the other option of assimulation (where your culture is destroyed, and/or only exists in an appropriated way) are problematic.

Also, how many people, what percentage of black people, need to be personall harmed by this 'shelter' for it to be ok? Like when is it ok for white people to harm them? (And as i've said, this may be a small harm, but if you can't see the small stuff, where do you go when an issue life #blacklivesmatter comes up?)

Maybe start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=African-American_hair

And then read the references for more evidence.

Though: "In Yoruba culture in West Africa, people braided their hair to send messages to the gods. The hair is the most elevated part of the body and was therefore considered a portal for spirits to pass through to the soul. Because of the cultural and spiritual importance of hair for Africans, the practice of having their heads involuntarily shaved before being sold as slaves was in itself a dehumanizing act."

This quote illustrates the comparison i was making to Native American culture, and how the culture was systematically eradicated.

I didn't realise this about slavery but, having learned it, i think it serves to emphasis the points i was making.

So thank you for giving me something new, i'm learning from this. If you are interested in learning, then you will have to do your own research. If you are not interested in learning, then nothing i can say will change that. Good night.

"So do you understand the argument i just made? That in my model it CAN hurt black people?"

With all due respect, that is an unsatisfying argument. Anything can potentially be hurtful to someone somewhere. You can' t please everyone.

You could even turn it around and say white people consciously avoiding dreads "because dreads belong to black people" as hurtful to black people who don't appreciate being segregated. Some black people might actually view whites wearing dreads as an expression of solidarity. It could be solidarity of race, or some other type. It could viewed a message of non conformity against conservatives who disapprove of such a hairstyle.

Do you understand my argument, that your position could in fact also be hurtful to some black people because it could potentially be interpreted as patronizing (racist even). Why is this less likely to be valid than your argument that white people wearing dreads is hurtful to black people?

I came across this on the wikipedia page about cultural appropriation.

"A common term among the Irish for someone who imitates or misrepresents Irish culture is Plastic Paddy.[84]"

True fact, as i am Irish, i can confirm this is true. Even Americans who may have Irish Ancestry are looked down on by most people here, but i personally don't give a shit, embrace Irish culture, or a watered down imitation... it may look stupid, but i don't feel my heritage or identity is under threat (then i'm not discriminated against in my own culture, so i don't see it as a shelter)

@"You could even turn it around and say white people consciously avoiding dreads "because dreads belong to black people" as hurtful to black people who don't appreciate being segregated"

Sure it could. And if you find anyone making this claim be sure to let me know. We both have out hypotheticals, and without talking to the actual people affected neither of us will know.

@"Why is this less likely to be valid than your argument that white people wearing dreads is hurtful to black people?"

I think which is more likely comes down to evidence, which i encourage you to look at.

But you know what, my 'shelter' arguement may be offensive - doing some reading i find some associations between Afros (another african-american hairstyle) and black pride. I feel like rather than just being a shelter, giving a sense of pride, identity and strenght is a much more positive way of looking at it; so while i think this furthers my arguement, i'd like to apologise if my comments offended anyone.

I think the phenomanum is much wider than just dreads though, and focusing on that topic is misleading.

Sure the one aspect of black hair-styles (with some black people having naturally thicker and kinkier hair) is that they are seen as 'unkempt' - which is code for racism in a 'not white enough to pass' mind of way.

But the general question you seem to be asking is, 'is it ok for white people to...' - wear native american 'dress' as a halloween costume? Wear black face (maybe while portraying a black character, which can be seen as taking a job from a black person)?

Have 'black themed' parties for Martin Luther King day? The list of appropriative behaviours goes on and on.

I could go on about the 'plastic paddies' thing, i find it amusing because i know the term and i never thought to bring it up because, guess what, i'm not oppressed!

It is kind of funny. But then i could actually talk about irish culture, the death of the irish language, the end of the bardic system and brehon law, the gaelic revival of the 1870s 80s and 90s... There was a time when Irish people were oppressed in Ireland. Where they couldn't vote for their MPs and where creating/protecting the sense of what it meant to be Irish was important... Not true today, but it is true that people still use the term 'plastic paddy' in a derogative manner; insulted by these inauthentic americans (mostly).

And you know what; it takes too much effort to be insulted by this bullshit. Like i've said through out, this is about power, so the damage done by plastic paddies is minimal. It may show a lack of respect (that attitude problem which others mentioned above) but it does very little harm, because without power... Yeah, you should get it by now...