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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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DeathLlama8 (514 D)
03 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
Let's Make an Openings Compilation/Magazine
As above, below.
7 replies
Open
Tolstoy (1962 D)
04 Sep 15 UTC
Should Christian Doctors be forced to perform abortions, or face prison time?
It's a perfectly legal medical procedure. If Christian marriage license clerks aren't allowed to refuse to license gay marriages, why not?
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LeonidasVader (100 D)
05 Sep 15 UTC
@ Jeff Title II specifically exempts private clubs. So all anyone needs to do is make their business a private club. You suggested yourself that the bakers in question were "lazy and ignorant" not to have done so. Again, if it's so easy to exempt yourself from the law, what's the point of the law in the first place?

And common sense tells me that any work I perform, whether it is physical, intellectual, or artistic, is mine to do with as I wish. Common sense tells me there's no valid reason to force me to do that work. Forcing one to work is enslavement.

If you don't believe that, I am actually a victim in a lot of cases. I'm a victim of not being good at Diplomacy. You have far more points than I do. You need to enter all of my moves for me because I am the victim and you are morally obligated to do so. I'm also not good at cleaning, so come and clean my house for me. I'm a victim of not being good at cleaning so you're morally obligated to go ahead and do it for me.

What? You don't want to do my work for me and you don't think I should be able to make you? Then maybe things like the CRA shouldn't exist.

You're still avoiding the abortion question which is the actual title of this thread.
Randomizer (722 D)
05 Sep 15 UTC
"And common sense tells me that any work I perform, whether it is physical, intellectual, or artistic, is mine to do with as I wish. Common sense tells me there's no valid reason to force me to do that work. Forcing one to work is enslavement."

If you work for someone else or a company, then your work usually belongs to them as a condition of employment. Depending upon the contract it is work for hire with the difference on whether you explicitly work for them or as an independent contractor for specific jobs.

If you work for yourself, then depending on how your business is set up determines your choice of customers.

Going back to the original post, what a doctor does is based upon the employment contract. Doctors that work for a hospital has their duties spelled out in the contract on what they have to do to stay employed. Doctors with privileges at a hospital have rights to act with patients in a hospital, but aren't required to do things that they don't want to do.
"If you work for someone else or a company, then your work usually belongs to them as a condition of employment. Depending upon the contract it is work for hire with the difference on whether you explicitly work for them or as an independent contractor for specific jobs."
This is a good point. Is it too much of a stretch to suppose that (in reality, as opposed to in ideality) in setting up a business, you are signing a contract with the government to abide by employment and service laws -- and that the government is in fact the arbiter of who may and may not produce and offer goods and services? Again, I'm asking about the situation on the ground in the United States in 2015, not in some ideal world where all is as it should be (it's patently obvious that the two are very different places).

My guess is: it depends on the good or service.
kahudd2000 (157 D)
06 Sep 15 UTC
A foot doctor doesn't have to perform an abortion, and never will.

The clerk in question had one job, and that was to process legal documents. This really is a paranoid fantasy trip.
LeonidasVader (100 D)
06 Sep 15 UTC
@Randomizer Yes, you are correct that if you are employed by others, you either work as they say or don't work. We were initially talking about small business owners, who work for themselves.

So yes, most doctors work for hospitals or clinics. If that hospital or clinic does not have a doctor willing to perform an abortion for ethical reasons, can the patient not make the same claim that the gay wedding cake couple made? That they are being discriminated against? They would make that claim on the hospital, and if the hospital lost the suit, it would have to provide that service. Meaning that the doctors there would have to provide it or lose their jobs.
LeonidasVader (100 D)
06 Sep 15 UTC
@OutsideSmoker

Jeff Skuta brought up that point earlier and I conceded that it is a valid point. It does seem like if you set your business up as a "private club," you can be exempt from the Civil Rights Act, which is a little strange. Regardless, as you say, it appears that in the real world of 2015, for the most part you are subject to anti-discrimination laws.

For the reasons I've stated above, I think those laws are immoral and should be abolished, but they do exist in the real world. I definitely don't think this post was a genuine question, but instead an exploration of the morality of the current legal situation in the US.
Jeff Kuta (2066 D)
06 Sep 15 UTC
"Title II specifically exempts private clubs. So all anyone needs to do is make their business a private club. You suggested yourself that the bakers in question were "lazy and ignorant" not to have done so. Again, if it's so easy to exempt yourself from the law, what's the point of the law in the first place?"

The Internal Revenue Code is chock full of different legal entities. Membership clubs are different places of public accommodation which are different from hospitals and non-profits and unions and churches and sports leagues, etc. This is not a secret.

But, laws have to refer to precedents and so Title II explicitly says what is exempt. Those who drafted the CRA had to do so because of Jim Crow. Southern racists had institutionalized discrimination by law so a law had to be passed which superseded and outlawed previous practice. Isn't that patently obvious? I'm sure the libertarian perspective is "just abolish the bad laws" but that's not how the federal government works, despite what Tenthers want to believe. States, let alone rogue county clerks, don't always do the right thing as we have seen time and again.

It is not "a little strange" for private clubs to be exempt. You seem to be getting the idea of private ownership and private membership conflated. They are separate and distinct. If you want to own a private club which caters to a private membership, go for it. If you want to own a private business which caters to the public, then cater to the entire public and don't discriminate. That's how it works. Get it yet?

The best point you have made is with respect to grandfathering in businesses (or people) which existed prior to passage of an act which requires them to legally behave in a different way. This is why the various chambers of commerce piss and moan about changes to the tax code or IRC. It costs money to become compliant with new regulations and guidelines. Like it or not, that's the cost of doing business.

If the laws change and a public servant doesn't like it, they can take it up to the SCOTUS. After that remedy is exhausted, they can resign. If they don't, then "Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass Go. Do not collect from your GoFundMe campaign."

I'm not going to discuss the sophomoric hypothetical at the head of this thread. Haven't yet.
Randomizer (722 D)
06 Sep 15 UTC
"So yes, most doctors work for hospitals or clinics. If that hospital or clinic does not have a doctor willing to perform an abortion for ethical reasons, can the patient not make the same claim that the gay wedding cake couple made? That they are being discriminated against? They would make that claim on the hospital, and if the hospital lost the suit, it would have to provide that service. Meaning that the doctors there would have to provide it or lose their jobs"

Federal law regarding procedures like abortion differentiate between two types.

All emergency cases, like to save the mother's life, are required to be done once a patient enters the emergency room. A hospital can lose all federal payments for refusing to carry out emergency medical care. That's why if you need emergency care it's better to walk in than use an ambulance if you can. Ambulances can be diverted to another hospital because the patient hasn't entered the hospital. Hopefully the patient doesn't die before reaching the next hospital.

It sounds stupid, but you can be in accident 500 feet from an emergency room and the ambulance can take you 20 miles to a different hospital. It's perfectly legal for the first hospital to claim it doesn't have space to take an emergency patient, but it does have room for admitted patients.

Elective abortions where it isn't an emergency where the mother could die if not done immediately are treated differently. There the hospital can require that a doctor admit the patient into the hospital and the doctor will be responsible for the abortion. Since it isn't time sensitive in hours, the hospital can refuse admittance to the emergency room.

So you can't enter a hospital and demand an elective abortion as in your example.

That's why most abortions are done at clinics and hospitals that specifically will do abortions. Some states have added the requirement that elective abortions must be done where hospital access is available. This means it is no longer available because the hospital refuse abortion doctors having admitting privileges to bring a woman having an abortion into the hospital.
@Leonidas
"I definitely don't think this post was a genuine question, but instead an exploration of the morality of the current legal situation in the US."
Actually, the first question WAS a genuine question of application of legal theory in the way that it was framed, to wit, is it too much of a stretch to say that setting up a business is akin or even equivalent to signing a contract with the government? I made no reference, nor did I intend to make reference, to the morality or moral implications of any possible answer. In fact, I framed it in the way that I did specifically to avoid getting bogged down in the morality side of it -- on which I, in general, agree with you. I am genuinely asking, as a matter of applying the theory and law of contracts (on which I am rather poorly read), whether setting up a business under present American conditions would entail the implicit signing of a contract with the government.

As for the second question (i.e. about whether "the government is in fact the arbiter of who may and may not produce and offer goods and services"), I think it follows naturally from the first -- or perhaps precedes the first. It is perhaps a bit rhetorical, but I'm not really sure that the answer is an absolute answer "yes." I am, however, happy to listen to explanations of one or the other sides. And again, I don't care about the morality of the matter at this point; I'm looking for how to interpret the present legal and commercial landscape. Have we a lawyer in the house?
kahudd2000 (157 D)
06 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
If it a legal question, there is no earthly way this would be extrapolated as a precedent.

The clerks job was to process legal documents, documents created by a court. It is literally contempt of court to not do so. Nothing was changed in our legal system by the jailing, so there it cannot be used as any kind of precedent for any NEW legal decision.

There is no nexus for a lawyer to argue that contempt of court -- a concept that has existed as long as courts have existed -- means all people everywhere have to do what the government says.


70 replies
backscratcher (459 D)
05 Sep 15 UTC
Help needed, someone please pick up France in TheModerne
Help needed, someone please pick up France in the game TheModerne.
2 replies
Open
Valis2501 (2850 D(G))
14 Jul 15 UTC
(+3)
Gunboat SOW - Summer 2015
This thread is for the Summer 2015 Gunboat School of War (SOW). Please be courteous to those running the game and respect any reasonable requests they may make. This semester the Gunboat School of War will be overseen by Yaleunc and Valis2501. gameID=164473
197 replies
Open
Zach0805 (100 D)
05 Sep 15 UTC
Anniversary
Join the 12th game in the Fall of Labor Day series in its 12 month anniversary
(The game number and months are the same)
You only have 3 days because this game is starting on Labor Day
gameID=166982
0 replies
Open
IRidePigs (1386 D)
04 Sep 15 UTC
New Medium Skill Level Game
Hey all, I'm starting a game for players who want a competitive game but aren't at an extremely high skill level. Starting bet is 150 D. WTA, hidden draw votes. Phases last 24 hours.

Game Id: gameID=166928
3 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
05 Sep 15 UTC
(+3)
Fresh off the presses! SoW Winter 2015 Recap!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re_oHsbd0QE

A quick recap of the last SoW threadID=1234165
9 replies
Open
D.Trump (40 DX)
01 Sep 15 UTC
(+3)
America's Abortion Issue
If you think a fertilized egg is living but not millions of refugees, you've got some rethinking to do.
142 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
01 Sep 15 UTC
(+3)
webDip Presents Gunboat Commentary with Valis!
We are currently hard at work on original content. In the meantime, though, check out the first 4 videos of Valis' awesome Gunboat commentary series! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vFFJpr_UqA&index=1&list=PLtzcMVBliKRLu23NLGvc4h87LtDEFC4lR
35 replies
Open
Check_mate (100 D)
27 Aug 15 UTC
(+2)
Another f2f in London?
seems to be a growing appetite for f2f's, and as there are American and Dutch ones currently or recently planned / in the pipeline, I thought I'd see if there was any demand for another one in London (or elsewhere in the UK). Really enjoyed my first f2f experience at that gathering back in March.
16 replies
Open
rojimy1123 (597 D)
01 Sep 15 UTC
Favorite Coloquial Rude Phrase
Personal favorite, currently, is douche canoe. Thoughts? Opinions?
3 replies
Open
__________ (0 DX)
01 Sep 15 UTC
Iran Nuclear Deal
Should America have let Iran build Nuclear Weapons?
57 replies
Open
Valis2501 (2850 D(G))
04 Sep 15 UTC
BGG Con / Texas
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1429189/bggcon-diplomacy-play
Anyone know anything or want to help put together something?
11/18-11/22
Hyatt Regency DFW Airport
1 reply
Open
Diploman123 (0 DX)
03 Sep 15 UTC
7 or 5 person game soon
are there people that are willing to start a fast game soon so we can all join at once and have a fast game? I believe we need to organize before so post if you can start a game within the next 10 or so minutes
4 replies
Open
curtis (8870 D)
03 Sep 15 UTC
Med Game for Rich
Why cant I join?
3 replies
Open
TheMinisterOfWar (553 D)
24 Aug 15 UTC
(+3)
Face To Face in Groningen, Netherlands
Sunday 30 August there, the Netherlands Diplomacy Association (freshly set up) will be organising a game in Groningen. Almost two tables already, so PM me if you're interested! You can also sign up on the official NDA mailing list:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/nederdip
32 replies
Open
Quick Tactical Question
If Russia agrees to be part of a Sea Lion, is it typically expected to move Army Moscow to St Pete's on the opening phase?
18 replies
Open
jmo1121109 (3812 D)
01 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
CD Takeover Refund
Anyone who takes over an open position can post here (non anon games) or pm me (anon games) for a full refund on the position until September 10th.
9 replies
Open
Caballo Blanco (1005 D)
02 Sep 15 UTC
September Ghost Ratings!
Oh where are you...
82 replies
Open
Chaqa (3971 D(B))
31 Aug 15 UTC
Lusthog?
It's been awhile, is anyone up for a new round? Maybe like 3 or 4 games?
17 replies
Open
thdfrance (187 D)
31 Aug 15 UTC
Back To School Game
Well mates, I've finished two long weeks of RA training, and classes start tomorrow. In honor of my sophomore I'd like to put together a back to school game. Classic, 24-48 hour phase, WTA. Bet size and anon I'm willing to discuss. SO anyone looking for a game?
7 replies
Open
kasimax (243 D)
25 Feb 15 UTC
modern gunboat tournament
i'm planning on starting a modern gunboat tournament with each participant playing every country exactly once. wta, 11-point buy-in (so you'll need 110 to participate), 36-hour phases, staggered start (i was thinking about five games at the beginning at the next five after 4-5 years).

who's in?
185 replies
Open
Dharmaton (2398 D)
30 Aug 15 UTC
I'm tired
On a lising streak... was hoping to win just one so as to leave with a better pointage to stay on the top 100 for a while, f' it. NMRing last games and saying thx so long for all the stinky fish. bye!!! :)
10 replies
Open
seth24c (5659 D)
01 Sep 15 UTC
Spartan races.
See below!
9 replies
Open
ssorenn (0 DX)
01 Sep 15 UTC
need an Italy
only the brave mat apply

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=165756
4 replies
Open
rmf (100 D)
28 Aug 15 UTC
(+3)
F2F Berlin
I stopped playing games here in webdip a few months ago, but I still got the Diplomacy bug, and I see F2Fs are growing in popularity here in the forum. So... Anyone in the neighbourhood of Berlin willing to join for an F2F in the German capital?
9 replies
Open
backscratcher (459 D)
30 Aug 15 UTC
What is this Mafia?
What is this Mafia?
24 replies
Open
basvanopheusden (2176 D)
29 Aug 15 UTC
Objective diplomacy
A game where you can win by getting 18 centers, or achieving your "secret objective", determined before the start of the game.
34 replies
Open
wjessop (100 DX)
30 Aug 15 UTC
Live and Let Live
I was typing a brief response to the post below about being 'trans' when I refreshed and found that the thread was locked. It was locked with a really great post from Jmo, so thanks for that. The video itself wasn't really that funny or clever, and was laughing at not with, without any sense of awareness; but I take it that that video is a closed issue, so I just wanted to add:
7 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
28 Aug 15 UTC
(+7)
webDip YouTube Channel!
See inside for some exciting news!
44 replies
Open
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