My first solo was as France, and ThatBuhILarry was England. it was PPSC so he got quite a few points, and the split was 13-18 i think.

England strategies are very hard, but I remember another time I worked with russia, let him into Norway, and he let me move on Belgium Holland Kiel Brest Portugal and Spain.


i hate the nation personally, but it's not too hard to do well

It's easy to stall out at around 13 centers as England. I like playing this country though.

You premise doesn't match my experience, ssorenn.

Bite me uclabb,

Alliance with France can be very powerful at first but then grows tenuous quickly. That naval threat is always there. I've read about games where E/F swapped Brest and Liverpool. I imagine that could help but have never tried it myself.

As England, I also try to get Denmark as soon as I can; I'd rather have this than Belgium. Lessens the North Sea surprises then and helps the push further into Scandinavia.

I can't imagine that the Russian would be too thrilled to have the English in Denmark and Norway

Actually I like England. Although not as interesting as Austria, I think England's certainly much, much better than Turkey.

It's not too hard to be successful. Simply convince both France and Germany simultaneously you don't intend to attack, inquite if you could have Bel (Den would be even better) in the first year, then stab the one who's least cooperative, in alliance with the other. Keep in mind your natural ally is Austria, and cultivate your links with Italy; a Franco-Italian war is always nice to have :) Worked fine: gameID=156348
Alternatively, you could rush to StP, seize Swe as well, and work your way down through Germany, then France, securing and crossing the complete main stalemate line.

If France stabs in the first Spring by moving into the Channel, then, well, work yourself to a three-way draw (e.g. gameID=154945, gameID=154732).

No, they usually aren't. But you can play it off as a move against Germany with some good press.

Franco-Italian wars are worthless for both parties unless Italy gets 2builds in 01. Waste of time and resources

Exactly! That's why it's good for England to have a Franco-Italian war :)

i think the point of my thread is that so many times you see the sealion, and other maneuvers that directly attack the island, is it lack of press from the English or players knowing if England makes mid game they most likely make end game too

England is probably my second or third favourite country after Germany and maybe Italy.

E/F's and E/G's both work great for England. The main problem the English have is the pointless wars with Russia. Neither country gains much from such a war (Norway for Russia, STP and maybe Sweden for England), but it takes up a lot of attention and allows France and Germany to dictate themselves to you.

Getting yourself an army on the mainland ASAP is critical. Preferably Belgium, though Denmark is good too. Army in Norway is crap unless you're doing a WT. And if you're doing a WT, suck my dick, it's horrible.

England should just be ensuring that everyone else is fighting, and picking up SC's slowly but surely early on. Once either Germany or France is dead, it's a great time to stab the other when they attack Italy or Russia respectively. And once you're king of the West, a 3WD is the worst you'll get. A solo is a bit harder, as you usually have to save the stab on F/G til the end and cross the stalemate line yourself in the Med or in Russia.

"Army in Norway is crap unless you're doing a WT. And if you're doing a WT, suck my dick, it's horrible."

Hahahaha, nice!

English strategy? Same as everyone's, get everyone else to fight, and then clean up one country at a time? Of course, that's trivial to say, but not at all trivial to *do*.

And yeah, don't forget to build enough armies. England has a lot of water around it, but if you want to solo, more than any other country IMO, you have to get your logistics right a *long* way in advance. Just enough fleets to land armies on the continent. Or maybe enough fleets to capture Tunis - but that depends on what is going on in the Med and whether you're going to cross the eastern or the southern part of the stalemate lines.

A in Nwy in A 01 is not necessarily rubbish, as it means you get to move Nwy-Fin, NWG-BAR, Edi-NWG/NTH in S 02; IFF you are in alliance with Germany AND France is on a S attack in the Med (I call this the Unholy Trinity!)

The problem with Western Triples is Turkey tends to benefit more than anyone else.

That's only a problem if you're not Turkey :)

In seriousness though, I think the reason for a lot of English draws that could have been solos is stabbing too early. This is probably true for many countries - but England especially.

I think a lot of England's nibble a bit of France or Russia or Germany (with one of France or Russia or Germany as an ally) to get say 8 centres, and then England stabs their ally to get 12, but gets stuck behind the major stalemate line.

To have a better chance of a solo, I think it's important not to stab until you're well over the stalemate line - until you have Tunis and Rome or Naples - or until you have Warsaw, Moscow and are threatening Sevastopol.

But that wasn't ssorenn's question (and I don't think ssorenn needs my advice, anyway) - he asked why EF or EGs don't happen more often.. ss, I think we must have totally different circles of games - I see those alliances all the time :)

As England, I actually really enjoy E/F, E/G and E/R. They're all fun alliances.

I've seen one F/G recently, but I don't think I've seen a classic sealion:

Spring 01:
German F Kie->Den
French F Bre->Eng
---
Fall 01:
French F Eng s Den->Nth
German F Den->Nth

at all, recently? Anyone seen one?

Keep in mind that a lot of people don't want to see a EF alliance and will actively work to ensure one doesn't take place.

Russia tends to prefer a FG and Italy prefers a EG, and in many respects, England wants those countries (I and R) around as a counter-balance in the event that there's a FG alliance.


I play England more flexible than I play other countries. I genuinely try to work with whichever player among F and G prefers to ally more with me. With other countries, I have a preferred alliance tthat try to work if possible because of my play style.


One big necessity is convoying the army in 01. If you don't convoy the army, statistically, your survival drops recognizably. This logically makes sense as well because you need that foothold to get anywhere.

Another key piece is fleet-to-army balance. English players rend to over-produce fleets. Only 40% of your units should be fleets. If you have 50 or 60% then you're seriously crippling your ability to advance.

Have a game plan. England most often solos by taking Tunis or one of Warsaw/Moscow. You need the follow-through with your game plan to win. England is so far removed from the stalemate line, English solos almost always look like struggles across it where pink holds one entire side plus one center in the east, where most other countries have more flexibility.

England tends to be more of a care bear country. If you're going to get that one center on the other side of the line, you gotta get there before the gap closes as the east reduces to 2 nations. That means you have to keep France or Germany around a bit longer because if you eliminate one, then target the other, you're spending longer on the west side of the map instead of getting a jump on the east.


So, bottom lines:
--be flexible with allies
--have counter-balance countries that will help you in a pinch
--convoy the army in 01
--have more armies than fleets
--have an end goal for soloing
--cross the stalemate line while there is a mess in the east

"With other countries, I have a preferred alliance tthat try to work if possible because of my play style."

Interesting! What are your preferred alliances?

"If you don't convoy the army, statistically, your survival drops recognizably."

Is that for successful convoys? I'm a big fan of the intentional unsuccessful convoy in 01 (bouncing Hol or Bel or Den). Is this hurting me?

No, if you attempt to convoy the army and fail, it has some impact, but not nearly the effect of not convoying or trying.

With Austria, I prefer a AR
With France, I prefer a EF
With Germany, I prefer a FG
With Italy I prefer a IR although I start out as a AI
With Russia I'm more flexible
With Turkey, I prefer a RT.

I think in big part, my preferences are that way because of innate fears and sometimes because I don't have a means of finding growth.

For example, it's really hard to make a IT work because they have to butt heads at some point if someone is going to solo. WT and ET are always tense alliances, and for me, a EG as Germany always feels like my ally is at my back.

@ATC I thought it was interesting we both essentially said similar things.

"I thought it was interesting we both essentially said similar things."

:)

"it's really hard to make a IT work because they have to butt heads at some point if someone is going to solo."

I don't know that I agree with this - I think an I/T could run to a solo without a serious fight, though I can't actually think of a game where that has happened. I certainly think that I/Ts can run for a very long time without turning on each other - the potential for longevity is one of my favourite things about an I/T.

I think it works out better for Italy than for Turkey. Here's some food for thought:

When Italy solos, Turkey is eliminated in about 60% of games and Italy controls Turkish home centers in between 70-80% of Italian solos. Italy has more freedom to solo since it rests so close to the stalemate line. If Italy doesn't push toward Turkey, it can push toward France without really having to put a strain on relationships. When Italy is eliminated and someone solos, Turkey is usually the benefactor at more than a 2-to-1 ratio over any other country (40% compared to less than 20% for any single other country).

Where Turkey is concerned, we see a different picture. Turkey, like England, rests far away from the stalemate line and has to cross quickly. When Turkey attacks Russia, it's easy for Russia to stalemate him at Warsaw/Moscow, or for a western nation to sweep in and take St Petersburg before Turkey can push that far north. Turkey usually tries to push into Germany or France. Statistically, Italy is eliminated in about 60% of Turkish solos (similar to Turkey's elimination in Italian solos), but Turkey controls Italian home centers in 90% of the games where it solos. Also, when Turkey is eliminated, it's more often Russia or Austria that is the soloing party.

Therefore, Italy is often more comfortable with the IT long-term than Turkey because Turkey needs Italian centers to get anywhere.


Images to go with my information:

Italy's Control Radar: http://tinypic.com/r/ayuc8o/8

Turkey's Control Radar: http://tinypic.com/r/qyct44/8

I really like the IT. It's along the same lines as the AT, expansion routes need to be clarified early, and if turkey goes the army route ove the fleet route, both can thrive

That radar says Turkey gets Paris more often than Brest or Kiel... that's bizarre.

It is bizarre. I noticed the same thing. The values were taken from tournament games from this site, so I feel they're more reliable than for merely average games. The sample size is smaller, but pretty much CD free and reflect high-quality play.

"When Italy solos, Turkey is eliminated in about 60% of games "

In the sample you looked at, of course :P

" tournament games from this site, so I feel they're more reliable than for merely average games. "

I don't agree with this statement, but I don't want to get sidetracked.

Let's take the stats as given- how many of those games actually contained a sensible IT at some point? My guess is not very many. You're already looking at a subset of games by the time there's an IT - especially if it is an effective one- and the control radar will look very different, for both countries.

I'll argue that an IT that lets Turkey get stuck at Moscow/Warsaw, or that lets Italy get stuck in the med/MAO has been woefully mistimed, and won't be an IT much longer.

Of *course* an IT that doesn't get Turkey past Moscow or Warsaw is not good for Turkey. But if you're not achieving that, I think the alliance has failed.

The thing about the control radar is that it shows average games, rather than a path to the solo. How does the control radar look for each country in games in which Italy has Por/Spa/Mar and Turkey has Mos/War/Sev?

@ATC, I've used that variant of a sealion you described. France has to be willing no to go for the 6th sc. But putting the German in NS early, spell early doom for the English

Recently? Cool! Do you have links handy?

"That radar says Turkey gets Paris more often than Brest or Kiel... that's bizarre."

Why is it bizarre? Kiel is extremely defendable from the north west, and so is Brest.

Turkey is actually a lot more likely to have armies in France (via *both* sides of Switzerland) than to push enough fleets out into the Atlantic to get to crack Brest, let alone get them all the way around to pop Kiel.

^ (Also, odds are better that whoever owns Paris may not have enough armies in France to defend Paris, whereas whoever owns Kiel and Brest is almost certain to have enough fleets in the area to defend them.)

Anyone who allows Turkey to get armies as far as France is an idiot; that's why. Brest, fleet domination can explain. Who on earth is left alive at the point where Turkey has breached Paris without having already got 18?

^^hence the fact it's rarely seen. I believe that if we see 100 more games, the percentage drops to less than 10% that Turkey controls anything north of Iberia.

My guess, though is that someone stalemates Mos/War and someone else stalemates Por.

HR: Yeah, but we're talking about solos, yeah? It's not exactly hard in terms of game mechanics to form up a stalemate line if a solo threat power is on the wrong side of it. Soloing powers are crossing the line either before they're perceived as a solo threat by the rest of the board, or else for some reason there are insufficient units in position to defend the stalemate line. I'm gonna put it out there that failing to stop a solo either means the game was PPSC or someone felt they had a random reason beyond points to throw the game.

I'm thinking if Turkey has Paris for 18+, odds are they have Italy but maybe not Tunis, and yeah, probably Spain but not Portugal, and Munich but not Kiel and maybe not even Berlin. Whoever's left from EFG likely enough fleets to hold up to Tunis and Kiel.

^ (or someone was an idiot.)

@ATC: I did the classic Sealion in this game here
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=125596#gamePanel

It's not super recent, but recent enough that I remembered it.

gameID=155002 here's a more recent classic Sealion.

^that's a clear French solo HR why didnt they take it?