Are you serious rn @orathaic?

It is an interesting question whether the Independence Day should be celebrated

After all, without it we would be.... gasp! Canada! Oh the horror


There is a plausible claims that the Revolution was basically the right wing effort of the very rich to avoid taxes ( especially the one to pay for the war to open the Ohio Valley to American colonization). Who knows, maybe if the Caymans had had dodgy tax havens, Jefferson and Washington could have hidden their money there and there'd have been no revolution.

Still, the high sounding words of the founding documents are belief by the fact that there wasn't a very serious effort to actually implement a word of them. As Samuel Johnson put it. "How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the slavers of negroes?" Manifestly, no not all men were created equal, just rich white ones.

Michael B, i always serious. And open to new perspectives.

As i'm not American, i don't particularily give a shit beer and fireworks day. But i'm sure there areany here who do, and cpuld use some perspective.

Yeah, perspective isn't something Americans are usually very good at. Too many brain cells involved in understanding nuance for that sort of thing, I suspect.

^yes, show me a country in the world, or at least the western world, that has a proper perspective on their history. Maybe Europeans should tear down the monuments that you all are so proud of, built on the backs of slaves and colonialism not to mention repeated genocides of Jews and other undesirables . Perhaps the only countries that approaches the right perspective in the western world are Canada and maybe Ireland, although both also assisted in the British colonial project

Ireland suffered as a British Colony, you asshat. Reading some 19th century English philosopher, i saw a very nice comment fron 1860, explaining that the itish economy hadn't gotten beyond agriculture because 'we intentionally squashed it to prevent competition'.

Ireland has done nothing but oppose British Imperialism - that said, many poor irish people left this island because of the poverty and lack of economic opportunity and ended up exploited - just like the english, scottish and welsh working classes - whether promoting the British Empire, or indeed the American Imperial expansion...

Of course, with some perspective, 'Irishness' or 'British Imperialism' are social constructs. They are ideas likes maths or god, which only exist inside people's heads. But they do exist, and inside of a head is good enough to make a huge impact on the quality of life of the humans with or without them.

it is entirely possible to have been 'irish' but considered oneself a citizen of the British Empire. Like Arthur Wesley (aka the Duke of Wellington), was a member of the Irish (protestant) Ascendency. And did entirely serve his time getting rich from murdering brown people in India for the British Empire... Nuance exists in all things.

Yeah and how many Irish regiments in the British army killed and raped natives around the world throughout history? If you want to be an absolute moralist, be one, don't stop half way asshat. I see nuance is ok for the Irish, but July fourth is a celebration of genocide, good job with that nuance shithead.

Poor Santa, can't get over the fact that someone presented a conflicting view. There there, maybe i can sooth your fury with a few kind words.

You didn't commit genocide, only the people you celebrate did. You aren't complicit, protecting property rights of stolen land only makes you a hypocrit. The American colonies didn't became worse than their British Imperial overlords, because they are one and the same (see the US invasion of the Phillipines, and use of concentration camps - very similar to the British use of camps in South Africa over the same period).

Don't frett little petal, you ignorance of your own history is merely a tool ysed by your current government to distract you from their current crimes; exploitation of people, murder of foreigners, destruction of sacred lands owned by native groups. America is one of the most disgusting empires to have ever existed, but don't let that distract you from today's celebration.

Bad things happen during the colonisation or occupation of any country, and thus I celebrate their independence, especially if it includes real self-determination.

I can understand a Native American seeing the fourth of July as a day to remember those who suffered/died, although I doubt that things would have been much different if the British had stayed in charge.

As for the great cities of Europe, built with the proceeds of colonisation and trade, I see them as reminders of history, good and bad, and monuments to all those who contributed in whatever way.

Would anyone support bull-dozing the Colosseum in Rome because it was built (with slaves) by imperialists? If not, where do you draw the line?

"you ignorance of your own history"

The irony.

If it wasn't for American soldiers my grandparents would have been gassed in aushwitz, if it wasn't for America the other side would have been forced to endure pogroms. If it wasn't for the ideologies that were promoted in the age of revolution, by the very imperfect white men in Philadelphia they wouldn't likely have made it that far. There are two sides to this coin; an American historian showed that Anericsn Slavery WAS American Freedom. All people like me can do now is realize that our freedom came at the expense at others and to strive to rectify those injustices. Throwing the useful and empowering ideologies of the fourth out with the negative oppressive ones is shortsighted.

Bull-dozing the Colosseum (built by slaves, including those captured during the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, possibly upward of 100,000 jews) is not equivalent to celebrsting the building of the Colosseum.

The 4th of July celebrates not just the founding of the US, but the monsterous Imperial project it has become. It is a distraction to the crimes committed today by your government (murder via drone strikes? Torture and unlawful imprisonment? Continued occupation of Puerto Rico and Hawaii... To name but a few). The 4th celebrates all the good things about the US, freedom of speech, and equality of all citizens (assuming you don't want a right to a fair trial, and are either Japanese-American during the war, or Black and walking down the street today...), it celebrates the incredible advances capitalistic free markets have brought the world (assuming you aren't working for below minimum wage as a migrant worker, or struggling to make ends meet, to pay college tuition, or to cover your own healthcare costs...). The freedom and protection of the world from the Soviet menace (i will not defend the soviet union, as they were amongst the worst authoritarian murders in history, but i will likewise not defend the proppin up of dictators in south america by the CIA, or the toppling of socialist/left leaning governments, and anyone who opposed US corporate interests... Nor the infiltration, assassination and undermining of left-leanjng activists and community organisers by the FBI - see the Church committee and cointelpro, where the US security/intelligence services used political policing to undermine the right to organise, the right to protest - which you'd think the 4th of July celebraters would be appaled by - the right to engage in the democratic process).

It is not just indigenous peoples, robbed of their lives and land, who should reflect on what this day means. It is every person touched by the biggest Imperial project of the 20th century.

See also: https://libcom.org/history/peoples-history-american-revolution

Interesting thought orashee,

Yes, the history of the United States (like that of any country) contains stories of great achievement and terrible abuse. The trail of tears "began" less than fifty miles from where I sit right now. I have taken my children to New Echota. Likewise, having my grandfather, who served on the USS Missouri, take me on a tour of the USS Alabama gave me a look at history that I'd have never known otherwise. Also having my father, a navy pilot, take me on a tour of the Museum of aviation in Dayton Ohio was truly memorable as well. I have stood in a slave market and explained to my children how ignorance and prejudice can lead you to the terrible notion that people can be nothing more than chattle. I have taken those same children to Huntsville and showed them a Saturn V rocket and talked to them about the great things we can accomplish if we keep a right mind and work together for laudable achievements. In short, my ten year old apparently knows more about the history of my country than you do having walked in the places where it was made and told the stories by a history teacher, and my fifteen year old obviously understands the definition of the word "nuance" much better than either you or Ogion if either of you think that there was anything at all subtle about your earlier posts.

Happy Independence Day

I guess the USSR wasn't an expansionist project of the 20th Century?

"America is one of the most disgusting empires to have ever existed"
Umm, yeah.......nuanced :-)

For my part, I am celebrating the signatures of a group of men who must have had balls of solid steel. Telling a monarch what the limit of his power actually should be. And they were right....how much power does that same office have today?

The USA is the leading cause of global tension because of their foreign policy and anyway most 'Americans' are just immagrants from the uk and aren't really there own people the only 'Americans' are the natives

An example of the American intervention is right after World War Two the American re instated a fascist government into Italy to prevent a soviet invasion it was called operation gladio they just put the same evil people in and in order to win the space race they took in nazi rocket scientists to help them with developing icbma and space faring rockets sieriously if you walk into NASA and yell hiel hitler they all jump up ffs

"most 'Americans' are just immagrants from the uk"

I actually don't think that has ever been true, Europeans perhaps, but not of the U.K.

What is a native other than someone who was born in a land. Thus I (and my 30% ish Cherokee blood) qualify as a native ;-)

All Americans who live in or have ancestors from the 13 original colonies were from the uk as those were colonies those from Louisiana and California were of European decent as those were owned by the French and Spanish respectively.

Exactly Hippopankake,

The history of the United States has great achievement and terrible atrocities. I am willing to accept both as part of the history of a my nation, are you?

Ora is about as nuanced as a twilight book.

They have achieved great things that's undeniable but they are responsible for millions perishing and they're history is just an off shoot of the uk's not that the uk is amazing and hasn't done wrong no country is not without fault but some are worse than others

I dont think you understand what the 4th of july is like so ill explain.

As a child and an adult today is my favorote holiday. And it has decidedly less to do with celebrating American Independence as it does a day of pure fun. My day is typically full of fireworks, drinking, food, great times with friends and family. Its a day where you can sit in the hammock all day soaking up sun and the air is filled with the sounds of people blowing shit up, music, pool parties.

It is a warm day of festival, parades, hardly anyone has to work. Just find a place with a good view roll a joint or twelve, throw back a fuckload of beer and enjoy life.

Last year just to be a dick I put up a British flag at my 4th of July and kept telling ppl if the british had won we would have NHS.

So yea, its possible to enjoy the 4th of july fir reasons that have little to nothing to do with 1776. Lol

"All Americans who live in or have ancestors from the 13 original colonies were from the uk"

You don't know how close we came to being a German speaking country do you? We were politically controlled be England, the colonist came from everywhere. As the song says "Even old New York was once New Amsterdam"

@BB

Lol, love it :-)

I got caught up in history teacher mode, thanks for helping me free myself of this conversation :-)

The majority of them there is no doubt that people who originally came there weren't always English,Scottish and Irish but the majority were especially after the potato famine. And Germany wasn't controlled by the uk. And it's called New York as the British bought it off the Dutch and renamed it

I know the 4th of July is a holiday bb I'm just pointing out the horrible nationalism that the American people hold calling themselves liberators when they often opresss I'm one to talk about nationalism as I'm a nationalist for my own country but I wouldn't stand by if my country was doing wrong I'd stop being a nationalist