"Making matters worse, Egypt, possibly the only country that has enough credibility with both the Israelis and Hamas to serve as a broker in any negotiation, has so far shown little appetite for getting involved in the situation.

The facts on the ground in Israel, experts say, suggest a conflict with no end in sight.

Appearing on CNN’s State of the Union, veteran Middle East peace negotiator Aaron David Miller, an adviser to six U.S. Secretaries of State, was unequivocally pessimistic.

“Effective mediation requires urgency, a mediator, and a deal,” he said. “And frankly right now, you don’t have any of those things. Hamas and Israel are simply not done, there is no deal on the table, and the Egyptians seem reluctant.”"

^Tell me again how this is ALL Israel's fault?

Seems to me like it's a two-sided conflict, and backers of one side are a bit sore they're on the bitterly losing end of a shutout...because as much as that collateral damage and anti-Israeli sentiments could help Hamas in some ways, I have to think that their own citizens might be a bit tired of their government shooting rockets and prolonging a war when the death toll--as everyone loves to point out--is 170 to 0 in favor of the Israelis.

To invoke the troubled sports metaphor we were playing with previously--eventually, when you get to a blowout that bad, you DO kind of tend to want your team to just give up and for the mercy rule to go in effect...but Hamas plays on, meaning the blowout has no end in sight...which is mostly a tragedy for the innocent Palestinians here, being betrayed by Hamas into dying, essentially, so Hamas can have a PR win and raise funds.

Netanyahu has admitted that Israel plans on a permanent apartheid occupation. The alternative as a lot of people see is to accept servitude. Israel has been careful to crush any nonviolent protest movements. Where is the Palestinian MLK? Almost certainly dead or in prison. Hamas isn't the only party that sees a benefit in continued bloodshed

I'm temporarily out of retirement so I haven't seen this sports metaphor, but it strikes me as quite distasteful to compare what's going on in Gaza to a game. Hamas isn't facing a "shutout," they're under assault from an Israel that, thanks to Iron Dome, can attack with near impunity. It's the arguments people had against the Star Wars missile defense playing out in miniature.

Hamas isn't continuing the fight to seek some PR win. They're continuing the fight because they're Hamas, and Hamas exists to fight Israel at every opportunity. Hamas is particularly desperate now since the war gnawing away at modernity in Mesopotamia, the Israeli blockade of Gaza, and the return of military rule in Egypt has cut off their outside aid. Hamas is gonna use the rockets it has since it won't get more any time soon, and hope to draw Israel into invading Gaza so it can fight on more equal terms. If all it even does is survive after that it will be a major victory.

Yeah, I wish that people would realize that moderate arabs (which has to be something like 80%) get along pretty well with moderate jews (wish I'll estimate at something like 80%).

Sadly the moderates on both sides are not that vocal.

Only the militants on both sides have anything to gain from conflict.
For whatever reason everyone seems to accept that the nutcase/militant fringe represents both moderate judaism and islam.

That would be like if people thought that the Tea Party and the militia groups and bald lesbian feminists spoke for America.

Too bad the middle east doesn't have John Stewart. They could use a rally to restore sanity.

Revenge killing won't bring anyone's dead grandparents back.

"Too bad the middle east doesn't have John Stewart. They could use a rally to restore sanity."

I'm sure they do. I seem to remember a story about a Jon Stewart like character in Egypt. He was taken off the air by Sisi. And in the Islamic State anybody like that would just be beheaded straight away. The lunatic fringe is not a fringe over there, it's a plurality.

And for all the sins of a nutjob settlers, at least all they want is the West Bank. Analogous militants in Islam want a restored caliphate stretching from Spain to New Guinea governed by medieval religious law. Go ahead an criticize Israel and the lunatic settlers (as I often do), but don't pretend there's some sort of equivalence between them and the people who rule upper Mesopotamia these days.

The moderates don't make it into their respective governments, Al. The same thing happens here - loudmouthed abrasive cowards win those seats.

Our societal and governmental problems in the West are entirely unlike the societal and governmental problems in the Middle East. More false equivalency.

+1bo_sox

Money and celebrity talk in politics, Invictus, no matter where you are.

"Money and celebrity talk in politics, Invictus, no matter where you are."

What the hell does that mean? Israel builds illegal settlements because of celebrity culture? Millions of young Muslim men want to turn the clock back by thirteen hundred years because of money? Looks like you're just as ignorant as ever.

No, Israel builds illegal settlements because it's profitable to them and Islamic nations push their religion on their people in order to exact control.

If you think Israel builds settlements for profit then you're so uninformed on the issues at play here that continuing the conversation is a waste of time.

@Invictus

Don't be unreasonable, Invictus. Logic and regional knowledge are not important components to having opinions on middle eastern politics, the requisites are claiming VICTIM STATUS and TYPING IN ALL CAPS!

I've missed our little talks.

I'm sure he hasn't, why do you talk when you obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

"Our societal and governmental problems in the West are entirely unlike the societal and governmental problems in the Middle East. More false equivalency."

+1, I've been saying that over and over...but some people here seem to prefer to blow that self-righteous horn rather than recognize apples and oranges when they see them--FAR easier to just have an Evil Empire and a plucky Rebel Alliance.

"And for all the sins of a nutjob settlers, at least all they want is the West Bank. Analogous militants in Islam want a restored caliphate stretching from Spain to New Guinea governed by medieval religious law. Go ahead an criticize Israel and the lunatic settlers (as I often do), but don't pretend there's some sort of equivalence between them and the people who rule upper Mesopotamia these days."

+1 AGAIN...can I just make everyone doubly happy and turn my case over to Invictus?

He's able to argue it better and more concisely than I can. :)

Obi - the problem is that momentum in any struggle can change so quickly. What to you think Hamas will do with all that money it's raising; buy more rockets that get blocked? Or something more deadly?

My guess is that we will see a well funded attack on Israel in the coming years with multiple causalities that will terrify the nation. If that happens Israel will be split between the 'why didn't we negotiate when we had the whip hand' and ' we must hit back harder'. Israel's political leaders need to look to the longer term, not sit there snug thinking Iron Dome will protect them forever. When IRA bombed Brighton and failed to kill Maggie Thatcher, they issued a statement saying terrorist only have to be lucky once. Don't let them get lucky.

Hi, all. I live in Israel.
I'm not familiar with the political climate on these forums, being an on/off player on webdip, but I can shed some light on these issues from the Israeli prospective.

I will not engage with anyone using name-calling, though, so let's try to keep it civil.


Shoot.

No pun intended :-), I just meant I'm open to questions.

Hello to (I presume) a fellow Jew, H.H...

The political climate here being, um, a touch contentious, I guess I'd just ask what your own views are on this specific conflict and the larger conflict, and what those you know in Israel are saying and thinking as well. :)

H.H. - why no name calling? If you are not willing to listen does that mean you are supporting Netanyahu and the right-wingers?

...Maybe H.H just doesn't want to waste his life dealing with people who engage in name-calling and rants over the Internet, Nigee?

But way to jump to conclusions.

I like how you dropped in you were jewish obi, when it wasn't even relevant.

obiwanobiwan: I am a Jew.
Opinions in Israel are the following (in brief): The hard-core right wing calls for a ground operation, the moderate right wing and political center wants the air-force strikes to continue until there is a military breakthrough or Hamas will come round to agree to a cease-fire. The hard-core left are against any military operations. Bottom line, the military's current actions are in the consensus.

Personally, I think the situation is very complicated. On the one hand, I believe that a wide-scale operation, possibly involving ground-troops, will be necessary in the following years one way or another. This means that perhaps now is the time for decisive action to set back Hamas' military force for the next few years and get a partial peace for the southern areas of Israel for a few years to come. HOWEVER, I am not a military or political expert, so there are people much more qualified than me to answer questions about long-term strategy. Basically, I do not envy our leadership and the desicions they have to make at this time.
On the other hand, if Hamas is weakened enough they may lose control over Gaza. The PA will not step in, since that would be percived as collaborationism with Israel, leading to a loss of public support. This could result in a very unstable environment and a power-vacuum which may be filled with ISIS-like groups, making us miss Hamas as a national force which has something to lose.
In short, I an in favour of putting pressure on Hamas to a sufficient degree for the missiles attackes to significantly dimish.



NigeeBaby: I am willing to listen, that's why I came forward.
I do not support Netanyahu in the sense of thinking his actions are necessarily the correct ones, or even thinking he is devoid of curruption. Inner political interests are a factor here is well (on both sides), unfortunately.
"Right-wingers" are not a monolithic group. My voting record shows I have only voted for a right-wing party once, a desicion I highly regret now. However, I do consider myself in the political right. But political views are not a football team, I do not "support Netanyahu" in the sense you may think.

H.H. - thinking about the best recruitment tool for Hamas, what about taking poor people who have suffered years of poverty and international isolation, no clean water, no electricity, basic medication, no jobs, no basic human rights, etc, etc .... and then you blow up their house with their wife and kids in.
Do you think that could be a successful recruitment tool for Hamas?
Then to kill Hamas you will eventually have to kill everyone in Gaza, whatdoyouthink?

First of all, your rhetoric does not contribute to a rational and cool-headed debate.
Nonetheless, I will answer you to inform those who are more keen to learn about new perspectives on this situation than using "appeal to emotion" style arguments.

Hamas recruitment is a topic I am not acquinted with enough to answer that question. What I will say is that there is a lot of dissatisfaction with Hamas inside the strip. The general populace see food trucks being delivered across the border (realizing that Israel is letting them through), at the same time experiencing bombings for which, at least in part, they reason Hamas has indirect responsibility.

The secular educated class suffers from being ruled by a religios autocratic regime which deals ruthlessly with those who oppose him. In 2006, when the Fatah was ousted from the Gaza strip, its people were thrown off rooftops. People are not dumb and do not forget such things.

On the other hand, there are those who are motivated by extreme religious and nationalistic ideology, viewing Israel as infidels who stole Palestine (which they see as the entire land between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean, disregarding the 1949 border). They are in favour of driving of the Jewish population out of all of Palestine using armed struggle. No distinction between soldiers and civilians is made in that struggle, what is termed "The resistance to the occupation".
Naturally, some of the religious underpriviliged class see this as a way out of their plight, a way to fit in and feel pride.

Electricity is provided to Gaza by Israel (which neither Hamas nor the PA pays for. This has caused a debt of over a billion Sheqels, over $500M which the national Electric Company has to deal with.) There are hospitals in Gaza (which basements are often used as storage for missiles, to keep Israel from bombing them. This works, since Israel does not bomb buildings with civilians), as well as a working sewage system. Human rights, such as free speech, the right to vote etc do not exists in Gaza. you can guess why.
"Killing Hamas" is impossible. Winning military conflicts againsts terrorists is a process that taked decades, if it is at all possible. I belive that the only way the conflict will subside is fi there will be a gradual change in public opinion and education. Right now, there is violent rhetoric on both sides and children in Gaza and the PA are taught violent propaganda in schools, praising Shahids (martyrs to the cause, usually suicide bombers) and encouraging continued resistence. The PA in the west back has underplayed violence in the last decade or so, focusing on non-armed and political resistence instead. This means pressure on the world community to create a Palestinian state unilaterally, not without pushing for a peace treaty that may grant them their desired territorial concessions. Sadly, school education does not entirely reflect this.

"^Tell me again how this is ALL Israel's fault?"

Because Hamas has been willing to negotiate and Israel hasn't. Because Hamas supported a unity government based on US conditions and Israel has sought to destroy it. Because Israel used three dead teens and lied about them in order to provoke this conflict.

Very simple.

False equivalency, claiming this is "complicated" just provides cover for the obvious.

And Obiwan, let's not pretend you've blamed both sides. You've been blaming one side entirely for this recent conflict. At least be honest about it.