Waiting for obiwan's response to the rest...

Be careful what you wish for...

Sure, as a per populace percentage more Cubans emigrate her than other countries. But how can you deny that our policies have turned Cuba into a shit hole. They want to come here cause they can get here what we won't let them have at home. Seriously, if we stayed out of Cuba's business, then measured again in 5 decades, I would bet you would find more Cubans staying in the country they love and it prospering. USA, leave Cuba alone!

I thought I answered the camp point, Jamiet?

"But how can you deny that our policies have turned Cuba into a shit hole."

I refer you back to:

""That poverty started in 1962 with the blockade followed by the embargo. We have *ourselves* to blame."

I'm not arguing that point--I'm arguing that in the 50+ years SINCE, Fidel hasn't exactly helped things."

I've ALREADY acknowledged our role in things, Draug.

That doesn't exonerate the Castros.

It doesn't exonerate, but in a court, it would qualify as mitigating circumstances. We can't possibly know what their actions would have been without our interference. Look up mitigating circumstances in a legal dictionary and get back to me.

I thought obi IS a dictionary?

Obi? God no... He's even more of an intellectual poser than anyone here. He'll forever live in his parents house flipping burgers at In and Out.

"We can't possibly know what their actions would have been without our interference."

But how long and how far does that extend, Draug?

I mean, again, it's BEEN 50 years...at some point, you have to stop blaming outside sources for a Cold War decision and start looking to the internal leadership.

"He's even more of an intellectual poser than anyone here. He'll forever live in his parents house flipping burgers at In and Out."

Well, at least I don't flip out at the mods like an adolescent twerp every time I don't get my way over something...

Besides, I don't think that's fair at all.

I'm pretty open about the fact that I like literature, art and so on, and suck at other things like math and science...rather than pretending I'm good at everything?

Tell me, what do you think I'm unfairly posturing on?

@ obiwanobiwan: " it's BEEN 50 years"

Yes. 50+ years of continuous blockade. You act as if the blockade took place 50 years ago and is no longer happening today. For every single day since this illegal, unjust, harmful blockade started, the USA has been the bad guy.

"at some point, you have to stop blaming outside sources for a Cold War decision and start looking to the internal leadership"

No. The blockade started in the Cold War but although the Cold War may be over, the blockade IS STILL HAPPENING, RIGHT NOW. So I put it to you that the blockade is still to blame for the standard of living in Cuba being lower than it would otherwise be. The blockade was to blame yesterday, the blockade is to blame today, and the blockade will still be to blame tomorrow. I will "stop blaming outside sources" when outside sources stop throttling Cuba.

I'm not acting as if that blockade is no longer happening...

I'm acting as if Cuba should've found a way to negotiate their way out of this by now.

The USSR has been gone for close to a quarter century now...

One would think that in that time they might have pushed for a regime change, or else demanded that regime accede to American demands.

When the US clearly has the upper hand here--and they do--you have to give in at a certain point and acknowledge that...

It's not nice, I won't pretend it's even fair--but it's the REALITY.

When someone has leverage over you in negotiations like that, you need to acknowledge the fact. The cruel, cold reality is that the US has Cuba over a barrel here, and this not being grade school, where good behavior matters, the US can employ, almost literally, "gunboat diplomacy."

It's NOT moral. But nor is so much of international politics or, indeed, the real world.

50 years to wake up and say "We're suffering more by backing Castro than by supporting him...maybe it's time for a policy change."

Again (I feel I must stress this, so that this isn't misconstrued)--

THIS IS NOT MORAL. IT'S HIGHWAY ROBBERY. *IT IS.*

But that's what we call international politics, where playing dirty is just part of the game...and this goes back to the Tank vs. Rocks analogy with Israel/Palestine--

Is the symbolism there striking?
Yes, looks horribly unfair for the Palestinians.
Does that mean the Israelis should abandon their advantage?
Why would they--who would EVER do that when they're the one with the Tanks?

Might doesn't make Right, morally, but it DOES mean you get to dictate terms sometimes...and Cuba's had 50 years to change regimes or change policy.

When does Cuba say "We're not going to beat this US blockade, let's change leadership and give in and get terms and get on with our economic life?"

Hmmm. Maybe because they don't want to end up like Guatemala?

A lot of things in Cuba could be better. But it's entirely possible that life could be much *worse* if Cuba simply caved in to the USA's obnoxious demands.

"I mean, again, it's BEEN 50 years...at some point, you have to stop blaming outside sources for a Cold War decision and start looking to the internal leadership."

That would be true if we were talking about a one time event or a practice that had ended, but Cube is still under economic siege by the US. So yes, it is still relavent. We aren't talking about actions 50 years ago. We are talking about policies and actions still in effect today.

You're a poser because you act like you are working in a masters or some such when I doubt any decent masters program would accept you with just a GED, not even honors high school courses. When I found that out, much of your personality suddenlyade sense.

As far as Cube, why should they bend to our will. Should the Jews have just bent to Hitler's will? How about all of Europe? We are being a despotic would be invader and are wrong. We are directly to blame for Cuba's condition and administration after administration lacks the balls to change the policy.

"But it's entirely possible that life could be much *worse* if Cuba simply caved in to the USA's obnoxious demands."

True, but they're already pretty bad going the way they are...why not at least try the other road?

"That would be true if we were talking about a one time event or a practice that had ended, but Cube is still under economic siege by the US. So yes, it is still relavent. We aren't talking about actions 50 years ago. We are talking about policies and actions still in effect today."

And I'm not disputing it's relevancy, I'm saying that the Cuban approach to that economic siege needs a change in tactics...

And they're not doing that. They're not changing regimes, and not changing policies, and won't even consider the fact that, after 50 years, it may be time to just punch a hole in their hat, as it were, and cave in, even if the US demands ARE absurd.

When your bigger brother has you pinned to the ground, and has had you pinned there for a good 50 minutes, and isn't showing ANY signs of relenting until you cry "Uncle"...

Maybe, eventually, you swallow your pride and cry "Uncle," even if in a just and righteous world you 1. Shouldn't have to do that and 2. Maybe shouldn't have been pinned to the ground in the first place?

The older brother has no incentive to get off...and seems perfectly content to pin you there and wait...

Why keep playing a losing strategy? After 50 years, it's arguably more stubborn NOT to just give in when the US--by hook or by crook--clearly has Cuba beat.

The fortune cookie I just opened was so appropriate to Obitwerp... One is not wise simply because one talks a lot.

"Why keep playing a losing strategy? After 50 years, it's arguably more stubborn NOT to just give in when the US--by hook or by crook--clearly has Cuba beat. "

Because it is the right thing to do. Between the 1860s and 1960s, blacks were treated like second class citizens even though slavery had been abolished. Ahoildnthay have just accepted the I justice and gone on with life? Do be am Obitwerp!

Your big brother presumably loves you so crying uncle ends it. A country under siege ends up conquered if it gives in as it's assault doesn't give a fuck about it's well being.

"The fortune cookie I just opened was so appropriate to Obitwerp... One is not wise simply because one talks a lot."

Come on, Draug...

If you're going to sink beneath your usual level to the mapleleaf/krellin level of name-calling, at least up your game...

"Because it is the right thing to do. Between the 1860s and 1960s, blacks were treated like second class citizens even though slavery had been abolished. Ahoildnthay have just accepted the I justice and gone on with life?"

1. Are we really comparing a politically-complex blockade to one of the worst crimes in modern Western civilization?

2. "The right thing to do" ...So? That's callous, but it's realistic--international politics do NOT revolve around what's "right to do." If they did, do you think we'd have a nearly 70-year state of war in Israel/Palestine, or technically ongoing one on the Korean peninsula, or the annexation of Crimea and UN Security Council efforts in Syria stonewalled, etc. etc etc.?

Morally right does not mean politically right, and to appropriate Maison, if men were angels, international politics (or politics in general) wouldn't be necessary.

What's more, your example plays right into my point--

Blacks "accepting"--and my quotes there should indicate just how loosely I mean that term--the second class status afforded to them in America was NOT helping them, or getting them anywhere...so a change in approach was in order, namely, resistance.

Cuba's approach, likewise, has NOT been helping them (fair or not)...so, maybe try another approach?

The world ain't fair--how is this a shock?

How is it a shock that a nation in possession of an untenable advantage seeks to maintain that advantage and use it as leverage, knowing it has and can maintain that upper hand for the foreseeable future?

"Your big brother presumably loves you so crying uncle ends it. A country under siege ends up conquered if it gives in as it's assault doesn't give a fuck about it's well being."

Well, I make no such assumptions about family members loving one another.

And...yeah. I'm not pretending that it'll be all roses if Cuba capitulated. It's a foreign power forcing this situation on you...that has to hurt. At some point, however, you DO give in and surrender, for the same reason as (love him or hate him) you cry "Uncle" to your big brother--

The hurt's just too damn much and outweighs the benefit of enduring the pain.

That IS kind of the point of a blockade..to make it worse to resist than not. Whatever the initial reasons, we've succeeded in doing that...

Will resistance change that? No. Will crying about justice change that? No.

It's the cold, hard, cruel truth, but capitulation offers more options at this point than does continued resistance, unless they think they can outlast the US...that IS why you'd keep it up and resist in a siege, because you think you CAN outlast the enemy.

Anyone who thinks Cuba can do that here?

Actually, international support *for* Cuba is on the rise and even in the US, there is a growing opposition to US policy. So, yes, their resistance will eventually change it just as the Civil Rights Movement changed and continues to change the racist world thrust upon minorities.

And the fortune cookie was what I actually just opened. It was irony at it's most delicious. Or maybe the cosmos calling out and reminding me you are a huge blowhard.

Actually, the official US position isn't just regime change or a "free and open" economy...it's returning all of the land Americans owned before the revolution and conpensating all of the businesses that lost money because of the revolution...I'm not sure if that's with interest, but probably.

I'm gone for a week and still packing, so I don't have time to go into it, but it if you are really interested, it might be worthwhile to dig into the reasons why the people wanted a revolution in the first place, what injustices happened to cause it, and what countries had a hand in those injustices.

If you're gonna debate, debate with the facts in hand.

Other than that, what Draugnar said.

@ obiwan: "they're already pretty bad going the way they are"

That simply isn't true. They have much better healthcare, education, and other public services than comparable central american countries, lower infant mortality, better life expectancy, higher literacy, etc, etc. Considering America's attempts to throttle it, Cuba has actually been doing reasonably well, in the circumstances.

And after decades of US pressure, and after the collapse of the USSR and the move away from Maoism in China, over in Cuba, the Communists are still very much in power.

Please tell me exactly how you conclude that they are "losing" this one? If the US strategy was working, wouldn't Cuba have lost by now? Isn't it the USA whose strategy, whilst harming ordinary Cubans, could be said to have failed? 50 years of pressure from one of the most powerful nations on earth, and yet Cuba continues to resist them. Why does the USA keep playing a losing strategy, obiwan?

Forgive my language people, just have to...

@obiwanobiwan:

"1. Are we really comparing a politically-complex blockade to one of the worst crimes in modern Western civilization?"

Fucking idiot. That 'politically-complex' (HAHAHAHA!!! USA wants something, has no fucking right so now it's politically complex HAHAHAHAHA!!!) blockade IS one of the worst crimes in modern Western civilization.

Sure, USA can defeat Cuba. Same counted for the Persians being able to defeat the Spartans though.
If USA attacks, USA WILL go down, because many people (including Americans most likely) will unite against the tyrans that crossed the line.

No one is winning. No one is losing. It's a standoff, against everyone's interests. The only sensible move is to end the standoff. This is out of Cuba's hands.

You truly are a fucking idiot if you think that you're winning just because you have more military forces than Cuba.

Nothing more to add, obiwanobiwanobiwan?

I notice Obiwan pretty much ignored all of the points raised, especially the one about Cuban "boat people" going on vacation in Cuba as soon as the US government allows them to.

He does that. He must be too busy writing to read.

Bumping while obiwannawibo is paying attention...