But back on the "do we really have to argue about the presumption of innocence in the 21st century?" point...

This has been one of my points this entire thread--

This region does not operate the way the rest of the 21st century world does.

Try as you might from atop Putin's holier-than-thou perch, or from whatever more grounded position the rest of you are arguing, I don't think you can apply the same standards to this region of the world as other regions.

It doesn't operate like it's in the 21st century much of the time, not even Israel, which I still defend.

The whole region ITSELF views warfare and these wars as having different standards and goals and being fought for different purposes and with different definitions of what's right and wrong than we do in other parts of the world.

And the clinching problem is that since so many states in the area fight by this older, more Medieval set of rules, the first one to switch and take a 21st century approach is at a disadvantage...so none of them are likely to stop any time soon unless they all stop--

Part of what the Palestinians need and want most is Israeli withdrawals from areas they predominate, but how likely is Israel to do that when in cases where they do that they get rocketed, and the last time they allowed elections in Gaza they got Hamas?

And on the flip side, the Palestinians need to stop those rocket and suicide bomber attacks, but with no army and the Israeli military right there, how likely are they to do that, when that's arguably their biggest bargaining chip, the fact that they can disrupt Israeli life on a daily basis and draw attention to their cause with that old Tanks vs. Rocks symbolism...doesn't happen if you don't throw the rocks, as it were.

It's cyclical, and perpetuated by outdated views--

And imposing a 21st century lens on it is a bit like chastising college students for not being able to add properly (and there are students like that, my sister's off to teach them in a remedial math class, lol)--

Yes, you WANT to kick and scream and shout at them, and yes, they SHOULD know better...but at this point, the failure's so deep, is shouting at them because they're not college-level going to really help them progress? They shouldn't be in college, and the the people in power in the Middle East SHOULDN'T be in power--

But they ARE...so, hold them to the standard they set for themselves, because any other simply doesn't fit.

http://news.msn.com/world/palestinian-teen-killed-in-apparent-revenge-attack

Disgusting, no but, just disgusting

"bit like chastising college students for not being able to add properly"

Not wanting to derail but I have to ask how the fuck a student cam get accepted to a college when they can't even do simple mathematics, much less 8th grade algebra...

"When the entire Middle East still operates like it's the 12th century, you mean?"

This is culturally insensitive and factually wrong. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Yeah, they are a cross between the 12th century and the industrial age, abut with 21st century weapons of war in many cases.

http://www.critical-theory.com/dungeons-and-dragons-and-philosophers-comic/

^What any conversation with Putin feels like...

And they should've invited Nietzsche instead--he may be Beyond Good and Evil (so True Chaotic?) but his Will to Power would surely compel him to go for the critical hit!