Be that as it may, it really has no bearing to your original criticism of GoT.

@Chaqa It's offscreen, but we can assume Catlyn stark was raped after/during the red wedding. Otherwise it's mostly unnamed women who are getting the short end of the stick, such as Crastor's wives and who knows how many small folk.

GoT has it's problems, and I think there is plenty of room to dislike, but I think its portrayals of women (at least the ones anyone is supposed to care about) are generally well done.

@Warden,

I'm pretty sure we watch Catlyn die during the Red Wedding. I may be wrong though.

I know we do in the book, I think we do in the show too.

Caitlyn doesn't get raped in the book or show.

Orange is further frustrating, Obi, because so many decent and otherwise tasteful and articulate persons seen taken in by it.

It's frustrating - the very people one would normally count on to know better, seem to have gone in hook, line and sinker.

Is anyone familiar with the work of Aaron Spelling? His programming is especially bad.

"What the fuck is "post-modern"? If it is modern, then it is current. If it is post, it happened after. Post-modern would have to happen after what is now."

Modernism = roughly 1900-1950 or so, give or take a decade in either direction, some argue for 1890s or a bit into the 1880s, and some see it going into the 1950s...the "peak years" for the period are the War Years, 1914-1945, in art, music, and literature.

Post-Modernism = 1960s-1970s, and it proceeds into the 1980s and 1990s and even today there are some using it, but I'd argue the most famous/foundational examples of it are in those periods...

T.S. Eliot, George Gershwin, and Pablo Picasso = Modernism...

Sylvia Plath, later Beatles songs("A Day in the Life"), and Andy Warhol = Post-Modernism

So when discussing art/music/literature, Modern/Modernism/Post-Modern/Post-Modernism = those periods/styles/figures.

So current =/= "Modern" in that sense, because none of us are going around saying that April is the cruelest month, or painting pictures of bombed Spanish cities.

On the subject of Orange...

I think another problem is (at least so far) this show REALLY has a problem having actual, tangible consequences, and I mean more than one-show-length consequences.

A perfect example's the incident with Red, where Piper can't eat. There you go, THAT is a good way to establish not only a formidable adversary, but to let us both see Piper actually AFFECTED by something rather adversely (and I mean really see it, put that Hollywood makeup crew to work, let her start to look paler and weaker and get circles under the eyes, all that good stuff) and let her overcome that after a period of struggle that's longer than, oh, about 30 minutes all told, given how much time is given over to flashbacks and telling Red's backstory and other cutaways.

But that doesn't happen--I frankly think they botched and opportunity there, making that lotion and having someone like Red accept that? ...This was a woman shouting that she'd make this person starve, and taunting her not to burn too many calories...this person was an actual threat, she controls something Piper needs, food, AND couldn't be fought physically (even if Piper could pull that off) and couldn't be bought off...

Until, you know, she was with a silly lotion at the end. Because God forbid we let Pretty Ms. Piper go a week without eating...THAT might start to get her hungry and weak-looking and desperate and establish both the severity of her situation AND just what a badass threat Red is.

Nope! Magic potion of a lotion solves everything! Yaaaaay...... >:/

@obiwan, you really should try Game of Thrones again. Believe me, there is a reason why the show is so adored (other than the explicit content). If you've only watched the first episode, you can't really dismiss it.

That really IS a problem I have with this show...one of many, but it is one--

I can't by Piper's predicament. The show doesn't sell it.

Look at her--does she LOOK like she's in prison, suffering at all?
She looks Hollywood-tastic! Every episode, she looks prim and pretty!
...Oh, sorry, she lost a little hair once. Oh, the horror, the horror...

God forbid she actually, you know, have an inmate snap on her and give her a black eye because she accidentally said the wrong thing to the wrong person (which she seems to do every ten minutes, because what better protagonists ARE there, really, than those that never, never, NEVER learn from their mistakes?), or again, let her get really hungry and pale and weak and actually LOOK like she's suffering physical pain...

Maybe that blonde hair doesn't have to be so perfect every episode? Even when they "cut" it, it's a tiny patch, it still comes out like it's combed and shampooed and glossy and nice...maybe have it get matty and shabby and rather ugly? Maybe she has her physical appearance start to go, since, you know...she IS IN PRISON...

WHERE IT'S HARD TO LOOK LIKE A HOLLYWOOD STARLET. >:(

That screwdriver's another thing. Chekhov's Gun--you show me the Fat Angry Lady who's mad that former lover is leaving has the screwdriver...and have someone go to the trouble of saying that screwdriver could be used as a weapon...

Maybe...you know...have someone get stabbed or threatened with that thing, and for a kicker, maybe have Fat Lady lie and say Piper gave it to her, thereby having Piper be at risk for a longer sentence?

Nope! We couldn't do THAT...that'd have consequences, and drama, and *gasp!* actual character growth as a result of severe trial, and who wants that when we can instead make a joke about her looking like Taylor Swift and use the screwdriver for what has to be the most uncomfortable masturbation aid ever.

>:/

"I think another problem is (at least so far) this show REALLY has a problem having actual, tangible consequences, and I mean more than one-show-length consequences."

If you like consequences, then you should love GoT...

"If you like consequences, then you should love GoT..."

*Cough, cough... S1E9*

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115232/

So this thread wasn't actually about posting our worst show ever list. It was about obi whining about one or two shows whose audience isn't exactly as big as even USA Networks' audience.

obi's posts are *always* a guise for him to complain about something.

^Well, yes...yes they are...

But I was also genuinely curious.

That I had an ulterior motive doesn't mean the other motive wasn't genuine too... :p

"If you like consequences, then you should love GoT..."

Maybe, though it's a balancing act...too many consequences too often can cheapen it.

Yes, abgemacht. The constant parade of prostitutes and eyecandy is really empowering. And GoT usually fails the Bechdel Test, despite all the pervy males claiming it has "strong female characters", they don't seem to ever talk to each other, and certainly not about anything that doesn't involve a male.

I do love the attempt by abgemacht to shrug off the numerous rape scenes as no big deal for his thesis that it's positive on women though. Especially since the legions of fans tried to claim Jamie never raped Cersie. What a positive message!

Putin,

My point is that many bad things happen to all the characters, rape being one of them. Is rape worse than infanticide? I don't know, but I do know I haven't heard anyone complain about that.

Do the GoT fans deny that infanticide occurred?

No? But I don't deny rape occurs, either, so I don't see how that's relevant.

Are you the speaker for all GoT fans? Because legions of them did say it didn't occur.

No, I'm the speaker for one GoT fan: me. Like all shows, I'm sure most GoT fans are insufferable, but I don't see why that reflects poorly on the show itself. If someone denies GoT features more than its fair share of rape, then they are likely mysoginistic pigs. Surely you can criticize a subset of fans without blaming what they are fans of.

Even if that excuse worked (it absolutely does not, if millions are misinterpreting your message, then something is wrong with the delivery), the *DIRECTOR* didn't think it was rape either.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/04/21/game_of_thrones_rape_director_alex_graves_says_the_sex_becomes_consensual.html

Good message there. I'm sure you won't see why that reflects poorly either.

Are you talking about that one particular scene or the show in general? If you're just referring to that one scene I'm afraid I can't comment, as I've yet to see it.

If what you say is true, though, and that a vast majority of viewers are not aware of the rape that occurs quite frequently, then certainly there is a problem. Perhaps though, its more of an issue with society at large than this particular show.

Whilst this is a wider problem than just GoT, it still remains true that it's worth criticising GoT as a particularly egregious example of it.

If the director is portraying sexual violence and denying it's sexual violence then it's a problem with the show. But it doesn't matter what is said you will let the show off the hook. This discussion is pointless.

Putin--how do you feel about Hermione Granger, out of curiosity?

I mean, the Harry Potter books would by and large fail the Bechdel Test...

But I think most of us would agree Hermione's a kickass, strong, *smart* (that can't be emphasized enough) female lead who's arguably more useful 90% of the time than the boys.

So, while the Bechdel's useful...it's not a be-all, end-all, right?

I haven't seen GoT enough to judge, but perhaps some of its female characters are the same way?