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obiwanobiwan (248 D)
26 Jun 14 UTC
Worst Non-Sitcom TV Show You've Ever Watched? (4 Episodes Minimum)
Friends were raving about this Netflix show, "Orange is the New Black." Watched. ..It's awful. Wall to wall. The main lead (not the actress herself, she seems to be trying, at least) is like the adult equivalent of Bella Swann meets Every Yuppie Character Ever. Every character's a stereotype. Every guy is a perv, sex-crazed ass, douche, OR just has no life whatsoever. The writing is as bad as I've seen...and yet, this won awards? xD So, worst shows?
73 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
25 Jun 14 UTC
Is it just me or .....
..... is there a lot of death and destruction going on at the minute.
91 replies
Open
ssorenn (0 DX)
26 Jun 14 UTC
JMO = King Mod
We all want to thank JMO for his service to the site.

No crying from the Mods!!!!!!!!!
23 replies
Open
glisbao (185 D)
25 Jun 14 UTC
Populism and Democracy
I've heard in here that populism is the plague that affects democracy (the topic praising appeasement). I would like people to elaborate on the subject - how does populism undermine the democratic principles, and what can we learn about this in history?
56 replies
Open
ArmaGGedon (100 D)
26 Jun 14 UTC
live game
hi, someone to anime live game :P
3 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
26 Jun 14 UTC
The link between having a large penis and self-confidence
Here is something you guys should all know something about, please share your thoughts if you've got the balls to do so :-)
11 replies
Open
peterwiggin (15158 D)
25 Jun 14 UTC
Man walks into McDonald's with knife in back
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-mcdonalds-knife-back-20140625-story.html
12 replies
Open
rayanking (0 D)
25 Jun 14 UTC
join fast victory 4 $$$
it's a great and a live game, it cost only 10 D and in classic map. So let the game start.:)
2 replies
Open
jmo1121109 (3812 D)
18 Jun 14 UTC
Many open games
Today's number is 38. I suggest everyone check out some of the open games. Post here with any games you take over for the next 48 hours and you'll get reimbursed for them. PM me for anonymous games. Games with more then 1 banned cheater will probably be cancelled so don't join them.
58 replies
Open
Putin33 (111 D)
25 Jun 14 UTC
Appeasement: unfairly maligned strategy?
I've been reading quite a bit about British & French foreign policy at the turn of the century, and it seems like appeasement (reduction of tensions through concessions) has gotten an unnecessarily bad reputation.
19 replies
Open
Tolstoy (1962 D)
22 Jun 14 UTC
(+1)
Can atheists believe in free will?
If our consciousness is simply a product of the mushy 3-dimensional circuit board we call a brain, governed entirely by the fixed and unchanging laws of physics and chemistry, is there any kind of free will? Or are all our decisions in life predetermined, like a computer program running through its code, simply responding to various inputs?
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Thucydides (864 D(B))
22 Jun 14 UTC
These posts on Being brought to you by the Being Known As Thucydides, and not the dip-drone, serial number "TruNinja."
Thucydides (864 D(B))
22 Jun 14 UTC
"What you believe is immaterial"

Hah, yes you're right, but not in the way you think. Emerson wrote:

"The solid seeming block of matter has been pervaded and dissolved by a thought; this feeble human being has penetrated the vast masses of nature with an informing soul, and recognized itself in their harmony, that is, seized their law. In physics, when this is attained, the memory disburdens itself of its cumbrous catalogues of particulars, and carries ventures of observation in a single formula. Thus even in physics, the material is degraded before the spiritual."
Thucydides (864 D(B))
22 Jun 14 UTC
What materialists get wrong is they forget that the first impression is that you exist, the first perspective is the subjective perspective, and the idea of the universal or objective perspective that they embrace is achieved through the medium of the subject experience of selfhood. They forget their own heritage.
ILN (100 D)
23 Jun 14 UTC
Yea, very interesting post damian, never thought of it that way.

Also, "Which was essentially, God knows exactly what you're going to do, but the fact that you do it is what condemns or saves you. "

That puzzles me as well :/

I also ask myself, if you were to pray to God and he helps you, is he altering the destined path for the future? Or did he know all along that you would pray for help, and that he would help?

So far, I like to think of it in the following way: God knows all the possible futures, and our free will constantly lead to another future.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
23 Jun 14 UTC
Someone had better have responded to my ideas by the next time I'm on because I used previous data to transmit The Truth to you rubes Lol
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
23 Jun 14 UTC
"... governed entirely by the fixed and unchanging laws of physics and chemistry..."

Tolstoy, nothing about physics or chemistry says that the universe is deterministic. Quite the opposite, on a quantum level, actually.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
23 Jun 14 UTC
Being determined by simple chance is still a determinism of a kind, in that it preludes the agency of a will. I have no control over what the dice will show before I roll them, only whether to roll them.
damian (675 D)
23 Jun 14 UTC
@ Thucy: Except that it isn't determinism. The premise of determinism is "that for every event, including human action, there exists conditions that could cause no other event".
A stochastic event is for practical purposes the opposite of a deterministic event. Since the exact same conditions can lead to different outcomes.

So while stochastic processes might not point to free will in the classical sense. They certainly do not represent a form of determinism.

"What materialists get wrong is they forget that the first impression is that you exist, the first perspective is the subjective perspective, and the idea of the universal or objective perspective that they embrace is achieved through the medium of the subject experience of selfhood. They forget their own heritage."
See, I don't disagree that fundamentally all human knowledge arises from a subjective source. However since I don't believe there is another path to knowledge, I consider any rejection of objective truth based on subjective observation to be utterly useless, amounting to nothing more than sophistry. If we are unwilling to accept the subjective - as existing and being a gateway to knowledge, than their is no knowledge. Suffice to say your concern that objective truths are derived from subjective experience doesn't bother me in the slightest.

But then my disagreeing with you surprises me, and probably you little. I don't think there has been a thread you and I haven't disagreed in, in which both of us have posted on any political, or spiritual topic.

@ YJ,
Dead on, almost every process from the quantum level up is stochastic. Which means the universe is so far from being deterministic that the only rational thing to do is reject the position.

@ILN: "So far, I like to think of it in the following way: God knows all the possible futures, and our free will constantly lead to another future."
This is what I was trying to present as a possibility for those who hold theistic views. Its about the only way I've been able to reconcile the concept of God with a universe that is non-deterministic.

But yeah, I can't parse the comment. That conversation ended with my saying: something to the lines of "I can't make sense of it" and the other person replying "it just makes sense to me somehow."

I'm not going to touch Obi's post... I tried to parse it but I cannot grasp how he arrives at atheists should believe in free will, from a discussion of the garden of eden.

Theodosius (232 D(S))
23 Jun 14 UTC
Granted it's been a while since I read the bible from end to end, but I got the impression that an omniscient omnipotent god isn't the god that is talked about in the bible... that was an invention that came after by people who had philosophical issues with worshipping a limited and fallible god.

What's a bit more interesting is kabbalism, which states that god is omniscient & omnipotent, but delibrately withdrew from creation (because god is powerful enough to blow away creation just by existing in it) which would allows for both an all-powerful god and free will.

The problem with neuroscience using how neurons work to say that free can't exist is that neurons are just the hardware...how the sofware works (e.g. thoughts) is will a work in progress.

And all of this predisposes that we can analyse ourselves effectively.

I prefer not to overanalyse it and just say that if we can discuss free will, we have it.

ILN (100 D)
23 Jun 14 UTC
(+1)
" but I cannot grasp how he arrives at atheists should believe in free will, from a discussion of the garden of eden."

That's perhaps because he's MC GETS SIDE TRACK-ED EAS-IL-Y
http://youtu.be/AE4zF36dPxE?t=2m34s
Thucydides (864 D(B))
23 Jun 14 UTC
"Suffice to say your concern that objective truths are derived from subjective experience doesn't bother me in the slightest."

It doesn't bother me either, but you are ignoring the implications of that fact. The subjective, the sense of self, is a higher order, or more basic, impression than say, the comprehension of the idea of friction. It requires no prerequisite, it is a foundational piece of knowledge. This is easy for me to see as skeptic; I never forget that everything I believe is based on faith, not knowledge. And thus since I choose on faith to call that which comes into appearance as true, I accept first and foremost my selfhood and will. External natural law comes on its heels. So if neurology is at best weakly suggesting that we lack free will, where on the other hand I have direct, fundamental experience of having free will in actual reality, I know which one trumps the other. But materialists get so caught up in the ideology of naturalism that they forget that they first synthesized the worldview of an objective reality on the basis of their selfhood and free will.

It's quite another thing to be a Buddhist or Taoist and asset that selfhood is an illusion. Certainly that perspective contains lessons - it shows we as beings are connected to all being. But it is not rational, not skeptical. The skeptic will follow Eden's reasoning - it seems like I have free will. So I have free will. It's an interesting exercise to imagine it is an illusion , but it is just an exercise , just the same as when I say you don't really know Abraham Lincoln was president of the US, it could be a series of hallucinations. Interesting thought, but not what a rational skeptic will believe.

And since science is rational skepticism, and the investigation of the natural world is a kind of spiritual connection to God or whatever you want to call it, by taking the spiritual of the Universe and understanding it, it's too bad that science has lost it's way in that sense. Forgive me for quoting Emerson again:

"The motive of science was the extension of man, on all sides, into Nature, till his hands should touch the stars, his eyes see through the earth; his ears understand the language of beast and bird, and the sense of the wind; and, through this sympathy, heaven and earth should talk with him. But that is not our science. These geologies, chemistries, astronomies seem to make us wise, but they leave us where they found us. The invention is of use to the inventor, of questionable help to any other. The formulas of science are like the papers in your pocketbook, of no value to any but the owner. Science in England, in America, is jealous of theory, hates the name of love and moral purpose. There's a revenge for this inhumanity. What manner of man does science make? The boy is not attracted. He says, I do not wish to be such a kind of man as my professor is."

Pair this with the idea of "improve means to an unimproved end" and you will see how science has lost its core.

"Thought, virtue, beauty, were the ends; but it was known that men of thought and virtue sometimes had the headache, or wet feet, or could lose good time whilst the room was getting warm in winter days. Unluckily, in the exertions necessary to remove these inconveniences, the main attention has been diverted to the object; the old aims have been lost sight of, and to remove friction has come to be the end. That is the ridicule of rich men; and Boston, London, Vienna, and now the governments generally of the world, are cities and governments of the rich, and the masses are not men, but "poor men", that is, men who would be rich; this is the ridicule of the class, that they arrive with pains and swear and fury nowhere; when all is done, it is for nothing. They are like one who has intercepted the conversation of a company to make his speech, and now has forgotten what he went to say."

"many faint with toil
That few may know the cares of woe and sloth."
damian (675 D)
23 Jun 14 UTC
No offense intended Thucy, but I am unclear as to the purpose of some of things you are quoting. I don't see the connection of your last quote to your point, nor the quote before it except in a tenuous sort of sense.

If you are skeptical that science serves the purpose for which is was originally conceived, I certainly must disagree with that. Science still endeavors to broaden man's horizons and improve the ease of man. However those who use the innovations of science aren't necessarily interested in the same end goals science is.

"And since science is rational skepticism, and the investigation of the natural world is a kind of spiritual connection to God or whatever you want to call it, by taking the spiritual of the Universe and understanding it, it's too bad that science has lost it's way in that sense. "
Perhaps you think of it that way, but for many people, (including myself at times. I fluctuate a lot in my spiritual views. ) the spiritual dimension of examining the universe is misguided, and science shedding that is not so much losing its way as finding it.

Sure, perhaps the question of free will is fundamentally irrelevant for me because my experience or the self suggests an intimate knowledge of free will. However other men and women have arrived at the opposite conclusion from their knowledge of themselves. Thus I am unable to determine if my experience is mere delusion, the truth, or if not everyone has free will. To that end I must look to the empirical.

Thus the empirical provides a window into a truth that may reveal my personal experience to be deluded. Is the empirical viewed through the lens of the self... sure. However multiple people can experience the same empirical events, where as the subjective experience of the self is by its nature limited to being an experience only one person can have.

@ILN...oh, so that's what obi looks like.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
23 Jun 14 UTC
"That's perhaps because he's MC GETS SIDE TRACK-ED EAS-IL-Y"

*shrug*

Kind of a big question there, Free Will...branches off into a lot of different "what ifs" that should be addressed, and then you have the matter of trying to anticipate objections to your points, rebutting those, anticipating the rebuttal to your rebuttal...etc.

Spinoza's "Ethics" is tangent-happy and goes off into a ridiculous amount of detail trying to branch off into every last scenario on that oh-so-broad topic.

And, um...I'm not as smart as him, but we're both bad-bad Jews... :p

(Besides, my favorite poem is "The Waste Land," which largely features MC Eliot getting MC SIDE TRACK-ED EAS-I-LY about April being the cruelest month and parodying Chaucer and whoops! we're in the Alps Marie Marie Hold on tight and down we went whoops! now saggy-breasted Tiresias is talking about shitty lovers and whoops! Shantih Shantih Shantih. So, yeah. This should not be surprising by now.)

;)

TL;DR version:

We're born free, and once we develop a sense of identity, ie, an individual will, we can act on that and thereby have limited free will within the confines of the historical period we live in and the experiences that inform that will--

I am free to read, reading Shakespeare is an act of free will on my part, as given my conditioning I could choose to read other books--

I am NOT free to understand Shakespeare in certain ways, ie, as the author himself, or 100% as a 1995 groundling or lord would have. Likewise, I CANNOT fully see Shakespeare or D.H. Lawrence or Jane Austen or any other author 100% from the point of view of a woman...I can learn about their point of views, study, ask, but as Virginia Woolf pointed out in "A Room of One's Own," it's always an externalized process...

So, say a woman views "The Taming of the Shrew" or "Lady Chatterley's Lover" as sexist misogynistic male fantasies about male dominance and abuse.

I can see where such a view comes from, and how a woman (or a man) could arrive at that reading...but I myself, at this point in time, cannot see that reading because I lack the experience necessary for such a reading and the internalized nature (that is, I'd potentially view those works differently and have a different will if I were a woman and not a man; I lack that experiential, causal portion of my will and can only approximate it, so I don't have the free will to see from that point of view fully.)

That goes more for Lady Chatterley than Shrew (both have their problems, I think LC is more defensible, though while Shrew gets a deservedly-troubled reputation for its misogyny I think the frequently-cut framing device helps) but WHOOOOOOOPS!!!

Look who just got SIDE TRACKED! :p
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
23 Jun 14 UTC
"Obi, you're tl;dr version is as long as most normal posts!"

Yep. That happens when 1. It's a complex subject OR 2. When I type without an editor.

I think someone should do that...become my un-official editor, and just give the "Obi Sparknotes" in one or two sentence quips after I post my shit...

Which would be funny and sarcastic as hell, but also mean someone might have to skim my shit...though, let's be honest..."Bla bla bla Shakespeare bla bla bla Famous White Guy bla bla bla Fuck krellin bla bla bla Point That's Somehow Underexplained in 5,000 words" would be a fair Sparknotes for a lot of it. :)
semck83 (229 D(B))
23 Jun 14 UTC
I think Thucy's point (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that, if you throw over the bases that you had for thinking science would work in the first place, then you have to throw out your scientific conclusions, too; and most scientists forget this.
dirge (768 D(B))
23 Jun 14 UTC
@thucy
"What materialists get wrong is they forget that the first impression is that you exist, the first perspective is the subjective perspective, and the idea of the universal or objective perspective that they embrace is achieved through the medium of the subject experience of selfhood. They forget their own heritage."

While i see your point Thucy, the arguments made by phenomenologists to "prove" consciousness as a vital force apart from our material existence do not work for me. The basic theme being, I am aware of myself thinking, therefore I am a spirit/soul. Or, some version of that.

The problem with this as proof, is you can create a computer program with a feedback loop which will be aware of itself thinking. Now your faced with, if this is really proof, then you have a sentient computer. Otherwise, you have to throw the whole thing out and stop claiming this is your proof.

I am not disclaiming sentience (but I'm sure some halfwit here will straw-man me), I am simply saying you have not proven it with your simplistic arguments. The difficult thing for vitalists is the hard truth that sentience does not equal self consciousness which is really an artifact of your neural structure and neural behavior.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
23 Jun 14 UTC
Make a sentient computer, and I will affirm its "humanity." If it's so easy, do it. I would not be threatened in my view of spirit and free will to find that it can come from another source than a human body. Why should I be?
Thucydides (864 D(B))
23 Jun 14 UTC
The thing is that the argument is necessarily simple, because it rests on fundamental reality.

If you start from skepticism, which everyone should, you have no knowledge or beliefs. It's a blank void to fill. Your next choice is to devise some coherent method to create truth, or to simply leave it up to capricious nothingness and think no further on it. It could be argued that extremely unphilosophical people stop at this stage. They just never follow the path of thought and allow things to play out. Fine. One cannot argue with anyone's choice at this first stage, because any critique will rely on belief, of which we have none so far.

But most of us who are thinking about it, and therefore I wager all of us reading a thread like this, seek consistency and truth. This is in a sense the first step - an arbitrary decision, a perfect leap of faith, to seek truth and and reason.

I would say that the consistent, rational thing to do, faced with this blank void, is to start off by examining your impressions, or those things which present themselves as true before you, and then accepting them in order of their strength.

This of course should remain uncontroversial with all of us. All I've said so far is "nothing is certain, but we must believe what appear to be true to us."

But it's important to remember that this is where are coming from. We start there, not with the Big Bang, not with natural selection, not with our birth even. It is an immediate process contained completely in the present, actual, real moment. There is nowhere else to start, unless you reject the initial claim of accepting appearance. Certainly a man is entitled to the belief that time runs backwards, but we would not call it rational or pragmatic. Hume said "philosophy would render us entirely Pyrrhonian, were not nature to strong for it."

Anyway, so on to the impressions. What comes first? I doubt we will reach hard and fast and universal agreement about the exact order of magnitude in which they appear, but some common themes should emerge. First out of the gate are some basics, that come even before sensory perception, or perhaps before is a poor choice of words - they come in stronger than the sense perceptions.

These are simple things. Selfhood and agency - which appears through a thought life. If you deny that this is an intuitive sense, you're deluding yourself. Children as young as four insist in studies that when a researcher does one thing, he or she *could* have done something else. We haven't gotten to neurons yet, so hold your horses.

Another one is the intuition of consistency, which we could say was first before anything, since it led us from the void to this inquiry in the first place. I call it the I stick to induction - the idea that there are ideas.

And a third is the existence of Nature. There are things that appear outside of ourselves, these come in through sense perception, very broadly defined. You look down as see and feel your body, you smell smoke on the wind. These appear outside of the self.

And last (again I am not trying to push a distinct order for these. For now it's enough to say they all come at once) and probably most contentious, I see an appearance or intuition or purpose or value. There is a sense of a why. We feel we exist, but not simply that, also that we must exist for a reason.

So there you have it. We start from these. A corollary about the observation of nature is a belief that other intelligent beings such as ourselves exist out there as well - it's important not to forget that lol.

So already we can reject any pure monism - solipsism and pure pantheism, as well as modern scientific materialism, are sophistry. You cannot refute the foundation of your thought system using your thought system. Well you can, but you can longer claim to be rational.

Example: nihilists, or, more simply, those who reject my fourth appearance: meaning. On what basis do they make their argument? On what basis can any argument be made in the absence of value and meaning? The implication is that they appeal to Truth, that they have seen the Truth, and valuing that over Value or Love, they are prepared to believe that this truth is that there is no meaning in anything. And yet this is an internal self-refutation. What sense does it make to say you value truth more than you value valuation itself? This is nonsense, just as the absolute rule "no absolute truth exists" is nonsense.

Similarly, if the progression of scientific inquiry, which is based on the intuition of natural law, begins to seem to suggest for instance that there is no self, this is a sign that you may have lost your way. None of those our initial appearance can be used with any legitimacy to undermine another, because none has any authority for that.

You would use Truth to undermine value and ethics? You forget that you must value truth to do this. You would use your understanding of Nature's existence to undermine your own existence (materialism)? You forget that you must exist yourself to understand nature. You would use your own existence to undermine that of Nature's (solipsism)? You forget that without Nature, you cannot exist.

One major problem with materialism, besides this ignorance of their starting point, is that they nothing of consequence to say on the question of Being, which is foolishness, because this is the first and most important question, since of course existence is a prerequisite for anything else. Materialists simply ignore the question.

What is painful about this is that the intellectual distance between a Dawkins-type and an Emerson-type is so small. People like me don't claim to know what caused the Big Bag - it is a great mystery. Neither does Dawkins, but he is uninterested in the question precisely because it is a mystery. He "solves" it in a most unedifying way - my dismissing its importance. I can almost hear his insufferable voice uttering "who cares what caused the Big Bang? All that matters is that it happened."

And yet this is a case where the question is more important that the answer. The answer to "why does something exist rather than nothing" runs deep. Existence is a miracle and a mystery, and yet it is the source of everything we love.

Similarly, our own existence as being ourselves is a mystery. If scientists ever claim they have "solved" it, it will invariably be in the way Dawkins "solves" the Big Bang - by ignoring it.

Yes, our brains, the organ in your skull, profoundly affects your thoughts, and is composed of neurons. But this is why those quotes from Emerson were relevant, dirge. That's great to know, but it changes nothing. We could completely and fully map a human brain, it would change nothing, because you have failed to answer the hard problem of consciousness, which is that you cannot explain how it is that I exist in a way a rock does not. A rock is just a department of the broader universe. Indeed my body is the same way. But I am not. I exist inside this universe yet separate from it, because I have a subjective experience and a perspective. Such a thing cannot be explained anymore than the origin of the natural laws can be explained.

If you would cry "God of the gaps" I invite you to fill these gaps, indeed, even to suggest how they might be filled. Even if you answer more questions on the topic, these large questions of being will remain unanswered, because they precede all else.

And so that is the core science lacks. Improved means to an unimproved end. We have a science of psychology that helps us predict how bipolar people behave, we have pills that calm us and inspire us, we have observations of the birth of galaxies and records of thousands of alien planets, but none of this, alone, does anything to ameliorate the condition of the soul, that is, to advance virtue, or any fundamental truth, because truth, without the meaning of truth, is dead.

This is the core of the poem "when I heard the learn'd astronomer." There is nothing wrong with pursuing science of the stars to learn of our place in this Universe. But to learn all that and forget why you wanted to know is true folly.

And on that last count I may add one last point: it is an incredibly stupid and irrational position that many scientific materialists now take that the magnitude of the Universe suggests our unimportance and accidental nature. This is madness. It is a base human error to believe that bigger is better. We are physically small, but without us to realize how small we are, there is nothing at all. A scientist with his electron microscope ought to know better than to claim that a small thing is an insignificant thing. Especially with fermi's paradox in mind, our existence may yet proved significant indeed.
Theodosius (232 D(S))
23 Jun 14 UTC
Thucy summary: I think, therefore I am.
dirge (768 D(B))
23 Jun 14 UTC
"Make a sentient computer, and I will affirm its "humanity." If it's so easy, do it. I would not be threatened in my view of spirit and free will to find that it can come from another source than a human body. Why should I be?"

While that is an intriguing idea, it was not really my point. Creating feedback loops in programming so that one part of the code is monitoring what another part is doing, is not difficult. In fact, it is done all the time albeit at a simple level.

My point is that it is not sentience. The fact that you would so easily dub it sentience, only reinforces my point that phenomenologists have failed to capture sentience in their operating definition. I stand by my point that sentience is not equal to self-consciousness.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
23 Jun 14 UTC
A being that experience consciousness is conscious. There is and can be no other definition. While admittedly difficult to suss out whether beings other than yourself are conscious, in practice in seems easier than in theory. Regardless, it changes nothing about free will. If we invented a computer than had free will (whether we realized it or not), what difference would it make to my own will? Nothing.

Theo, it's a bit more complicated than that. Thought is not the proof that I existence. The existence is a proof in itself. Thinking is a consequence of existence to my mind, not the other way around. Meditative practice shows that existence is more than just thought. It is, simply, being.
dirge (768 D(B))
23 Jun 14 UTC
And, Thucy, you might consider getting yourself a job of some kind, preferably manual labor. Just a suggestion.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
23 Jun 14 UTC
I might add that the very fact that you cannot really use science to determine if another being besides yourself is consciousness is a manifestation of the mystery of being - the hard problem cannot be solved by science as we know it.

In my own opinion, the entire point of it is to be a mystery, and so, it will never be solved. This should not stop us from going on inquiring anyway. It should be clear that I am not anti-science. I am against the worldview that scientists seem irrationally convinced of, what I have been calling deterministic materialism.

Again, the intellectual distance between what many scientists believe and what I believe is not far. I am not asserting the existence of Heaven or something. Indeed, Heaven is on earth. God's will is already done on earth as it is in Heaven - earth is part of the heavens. So yes I would tentatively say I'm an agnostic theist, but I suspect the mass of theists would not have me in their number, for I believe in nothing more than what I see. I just happen to think that religion was, and for a few still is, based on the simple observations I have been making, but that circumstance sent it spiraling out of control such that conventional adherents are asked to assert a belief in an anthropomorphic deity and all number of quasi-historical accounts.

But animism, broadly defined, is something different. There is new logic in animism than in your average refit atheist's "logic" - far from being backward savage religion, it is rather a kind of deeply prescient proto-philosophy.

Of course everything is animated by spirit - it is almost a tautology - the spirit is the animation of matter and the animation is the spirit. Less than making some hare-brained metaphysical claim, it simply asks you to re-evaluate the actual physical world and give it the respect it deserves. You don't need a Christian God peering down from Heaven to be in awe of Creation. It is this sense of wonder that scientists lack, but even then, many clearly have the sense, they just don't give it the attention or respect it deserves. The call it awe, but it is nothing less than transcendence. It's the birthright of humanity and we'd do well not to abdicate our throne.

Taking a different tack, where do you think the modern malady of hopelessness, meaninglessness, aimlessness, etc. comes from? The only sin in my metaphysics is denying the importance of meaning.

Materialism does that. And I would ask a vanilla atheist who does so - why? Why do you believe what you do? I cannot imagine any response that greatly varied from their devotion to truth above all else.

But reason is and ought to be a slave of the passions. Disagree if you want, but you cannot change that fact. Truth without meaning is not truth, indeed it isn't anything at all. Just as your life, without free will, is nothing. It's a tree falling in the forest that no one hears - it may as well not exist.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
23 Jun 14 UTC
Funny you should say that dirge I'm doing manual labor as we speak. Or I was minutes ago, I should say.

But of course you meant that as some kind of insult. I suppose I should feel insulted.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
23 Jun 14 UTC
(+1)
Way to be a douche though, Lol. Keep it up friendo
that would have been a better putdown had Thucy literally not semi-left webdip for the summer to go work a farm in Jamaica
Octavious (2802 D)
23 Jun 14 UTC
Coincidentally at almost exactly the same time as Jamaica relaxed its cannabis laws...

Thucydides (864 D(B))
23 Jun 14 UTC
#OnlyGodCanJudgeMe
Octavious (2802 D)
23 Jun 14 UTC
That's factually inaccurate, and even if true would be worrying :p
fulhamish (4134 D)
23 Jun 14 UTC
Unless and until we come up with a theory which unites the micro (quantum) world with the macro (Newtonian) world no atheist/materialist/reductionist can possibly believe in the actual existence of free will. And even if we were to do so, it is likely that such a belief in free will would not sit well with our derived answer. Unless, of course, the ultimate solution lies with the Divine.

On the other hand perhaps free will is the manifestation of being "made in God's image"?

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126 replies
rojimy1123 (597 D)
25 Jun 14 UTC
Taking over CDs
I have recently taken over 2 positions in games where players left. I am wondering why my profile says I haven't taken over CD's at all.
8 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
20 Jun 14 UTC
Again--This is NOT a Christian Country...
http://news.yahoo.com/republicans-obama-must-defend-christian-values-192212780--election.html Christians live here--AND Jews, AND Muslims, AND Buddhists and Hindus and Atheists (fastest growing group!) AND dozens of others (including, hey, all those Native American tribes and religions...many of which were criminalized in part until the 1970s)...WHY? Why must Obama defend the values of a specific sect, when the Constitution clearly is anti-favoritism in terms of religion?
74 replies
Open
Birchford (167 D)
25 Jun 14 UTC
Parameter 'fromTerrID' set to invalid value '32'
Hello, has anyone encountered this error before, and if so do you have a fix for it? Thanks for your help.
13 replies
Open
dr. octagonapus (210 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
Commenting on ongoing gunboat games
I realise of course that you are not allowed to circumvent the no talking rule, like press via email or pm or f2f talking etc. but why is discussing the board in general disallowed? I get that I should not say who I am in the game but if someone is to talk about the board unbiased and without revealing who they are would this be acceptable?
23 replies
Open
ssorenn (0 DX)
09 Jun 14 UTC
Two team members per country game?
Would anyone be interested in creating a game, that each of the 7 clasic countries were comprised of two team members consulting together. I understand that only one can actually be listed in the game itself, but maybe create a side pot for the second team members that would pay out equally at end of game
236 replies
Open
KingCyrus (511 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
Boys State
Anyone familiar with this program?
5 replies
Open
Buzzle (1531 D)
23 Jun 14 UTC
multi-players
What if you have strong suspicions that someone is multi-playing in a game? Who do you contact to check into it?
38 replies
Open
fulhamish (4134 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
US constitution
I readily admit to starting from a low base on this one, but.....
23 replies
Open
SYnapse (0 DX)
24 Jun 14 UTC
Jihadists in Syria
Right now David Cameron is going on about the "threat" from Jihadists leaving the UK to go fight in Iraq and Syria.
Am I missing something? Why are Jihadists fighting in Syria a threat here? To me, it seems no more different than Orwell fighting in Spain.
28 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
Putin on Putin: An Open Invitation to Putin33 on the Russia/Ukraine/Syria Crisis
Welcome BACK, Putin33...my oh my, how the world of international politics has exploded since you last graced us with your presence...are you ready to decry your namesake for the scourge of the world that he is? Most assuredly not, but let this be an open letter and open invitation for you to give YOUR take on the whole of the crisis--and your namesake in particular--as so many have been wondering if you'd capitulate to common sense and call him out for the thug Big Bad Vlad is.
26 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (1307 D)
23 Jun 14 UTC
(+3)
Can atheists believe in free willy?
If our consciousness is simply a product of the mushy 3-dimensional circuit board we call a brain, governed entirely by the fixed and unchanging laws of physics and chemistry, is it possible to believe that a disaffected but endearing youth could inspire a captive orca whale to jump out of the water and over a 15 foot high sea wall?
7 replies
Open
curupira (3441 D)
23 Jun 14 UTC
Classic variant: less than seven players.
I have recent engaged at this online Diplomacy. Long time ago, I did played this game in board. There were choices in the Classic Map for less than seven players. For six players, for example, one have to quit Turkey and Bulgaria. Is there any variants at this webDiplomacy that allow games of this kind? Could it be created?
2 replies
Open
Chaqa (3971 D(B))
23 Jun 14 UTC
Pair of press games
gameID=143769
gameID=143770

If anyone's intereste.
3 replies
Open
steephie22 (182 D(S))
17 Jun 14 UTC
Need some web design in the holidays?
Planning ahead, I'll probably be happy doing anything more useful than what most people usually do during holidays, so I figured that doing some web design for someone is a good way to help, brush up and improve my skills and perhaps even earn a couple of bucks. Perhaps someone has such a project for me?
See inside.
26 replies
Open
oscarjd74 (100 D)
27 Feb 14 UTC
(+2)
Backseat Driver Diplomacy thread
gameID=136645

DO NOT POST IN HERE UNLESS YOU ARE ONE OF THE BACKSEAT DRIVERS IN THE BACKSEAT DRIVER GAME.
390 replies
Open
CommanderByron (801 D(S))
22 Jun 14 UTC
Variant?
New variant idea with alot of changes to Classic. would add to the naval combat substantially and would intentionally reduce ground forces at the start of the game changing possibly the direction the countries attacked at turn 0
17 replies
Open
CommanderByron (801 D(S))
22 Jun 14 UTC
(+1)
Challenge
I am looking for experienced players to play against so I can learn more and better myself? I realize i am relatively new but I think I have a valid argument for why I should be given the chance. Looking for a classic, PPSC, ANON no messaging game.
17 replies
Open
trip (696 D(B))
19 Jun 14 UTC
Lusthog Gunboat
Lusthog = no voting to draw until a stalemate line has been established and held.
Anyone interested in a game or two?
37 replies
Open
the southern lord (0 DX)
22 Jun 14 UTC
Strange orders
Hi,

Has anyone else noticed that the orders you've put in the past week, are often not what happens?
16 replies
Open
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